Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, as of late i have been captivated by all types of monitors and am considering acquiring one. What would be a good medium sized monitor? I'm thinking somewhere between an ackie and a blackthroat. Thanks, chris

Between an ackie and a blackthroat? You have a ton of options, but why not ackies themselves? They are excellent animals. However, if you want something a little larger, you may get a Bosc or maybe a flavi/argus cross. The only problem with Boscs is that they are all (all but 1% or less) wild caught. However, both Boscs and flavi/argus eat a TON of food daily, so you would probably be better off with an ackie or some other type of dwarf monitor. Start small, and if you enjoy your ackies, you may want to move up.

Make sure you do a ton of research, both on the internet and through a book or two. Any correct information on monitors can apply to all of them. Be cautious of all information you see, though. There is bad information given by some people and in some books. You really should have done some research to answer your question yourself. But, anyway...

Ryan

OK, thanks for the response. This is part of the research that I am doing and I'm asking those in the know so I can make an informed decision.

instead of a flavi/argus cross, i would recommend either a flavi or argus. why continue creating a demand for poluted blood. expecially if you plan on breeding in the future i suggest you buy a pure bred species, what ever that might be.
cheers

I would say sav. I know where to get GOOD ones that have been LTC and have been treated for parasites. I actually held it the other day, it was so calm and willing. I wish I had room for it!!!

Why not ask those who keep crosses what they think of them. They are wonderful. In fact, they are in most cases superior. They are not freaks, or mutations. They contain no misshapen parts.

They do have great behaviors. My feeling is, crossing them allows for a more general behavior set. Something more basic to monitors, less refined if you will. It takes the wild edge off. In other words, their behavior is much easier for us simple humans to understand and enjoy.

I will mention this again. Once Daniel Bennett came over(of course academics do not like crosses either) While he was here, he could not keep his eyes off the crosses. Everytime I turned around he was sitting at one cross cage(a group). He was simply staring. I looked in and of course the crosses were being themselves, they were exhibiting all sort of REAL VARANID behavior, right in front of Daniel. Mating, group hunting, bonding, etc etc etc. Right in front of him, on Demand, no sneaking up and being still and quite. You could be doing jumping jacks and the those monitors would still do all their behavior, RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. They did things Daniel had never seen in his life. All in a few hours. NOw consider, Daniel had dozens of pure species to look at?????

Your adversion to crosses is very odd and more about you then the animals. I would imagine its merely because you do not have a real understanding of monitors. In this case of Gouldi crosses, you probably think, there are three kinds, like gouldi, flavi, and panoptes. But in Frank reality, there are those, plus many more, in nature. Some of these many more are very very representative of crosses. In fact, appear in all ways to be crosses. I would guess someday in the future, these animals will indeed enjoy proper identification.

In the meantime get over it. Your allowed to keep what you like, Why not let others do the same.

As far as I can tell, the only thing crossing these monitors does is, kinda takes the wild edge off, and in most cases, that is a very very good thing. It kinda makes them good beginer or good teaching monitors.

So in a real sense, I would rather have beginers and the likes of keepers like you, experimenting and learning with something like crosses that were not taken at the expense of nature. That are also less wild. That are more behavioral. That are CAPTIVE ENTITIES. That are not so friggin easy to kill off due to our mistakes. YET, represent varanids in a very very substantial way. Then once these keepers gain valuable experience, they can move on to keeping more refined natural species.

Or would you rather these beginers start with blue/green/yellow trees or melinus. Yes, I bet you would. Cheers

p.s. by the way, your a cross, your dogs a cross, your cats a cross, and most likely you fish is too.

you crack me up FR. you always manage to make good arguements, and at the same time you always manage to sneak in a shot at the person you're responding to. even if it has nothing to do with the topic. i look forward to reading your responses.

i don't doubt that crosses are great monitors to keep. but that's not what bothers me. i'm more about conserving pure species. i would bet there's already more of those flavi/argus crosses in this country than pure flavies. soon you won't be able to get one at all that isn't poluted. what a shame.

of all people, why would you want to manipulate and change the monitors to better suit our needs and wants as keepers? shouldn't it be the other way around? is this all for the benefit of the newbie? sounds like a bandaid way to break them in. in my opinion it's irresponsible breeding.

cheers
shay

What shot, I did not take a shot at you. did you think calling you a cross is a shot. Its not, its putting life into prespective. Our lifes are full of crosses, in fact we are crosses. Is that bad???????? I never said it was bad.

Heres the deal, you stated an opinion or belief, but you failed to back it with any reasoning what so ever. I then stated my opinion, and backed it with some very good reasons. That is what we are suppose to do here. Yes, your lack or good reason reflects poorly on you, but its not a shot, unless you shot yourself.

If you would think about it, your not against crosses, your for keepers getting better at what they do. In this we agree. If keepers were better, they would have kept breeding flavis and they would be common as crosses. Sir, Flavis are worth more money. Why aren't they being bred??????

Its not about crosses, its about lack of people with enough experience to actually breed monitors, true, pure or cross them.

Also your "we won't be able to have them", refering to pure flavis is funny. The truth is, we were never suppose to have them. But we did.

I made every effort to allow all future keepers to have pure flavis. I produced hundreds of them. In fact, I have a couple of clutches about the hatch now.

The truth is, most cannot tell one from the other. And I imagine that includes you. Do you know the difference between members of this complex? Not two members, but all the members. In fact, how do you know what a Flavi is???? do you all the color variations flavis have, both in captivity and in nature???? Do you know some of them? Is there one standard type of flavi?

I mention that because thats exactly how many of these crosses came about, we simply did not know the differences, at the time. Not I, nor some zoos. Cheers

i know people and dogs are all crosses. that's not what i was referring to. the shot, or should i say your ace card you always pull out when you disagree with someone is when you say "you just don't have a real understanding of monitors". and you're right when compared to your knowledge from many years of keeping and breeding experience. but i don't think that has anything to do with this topic. that's just an attempt to reduce the weight of my thoughts.

i did provide reasons for my opinion. to preserve pure species, so that those who love the natural history of varanids can have the opportunity to keep and observe them in captivity.

you provided reasons for your opinion that seems to be hypocritical of your beliefs. manipulating the animal to better suit a keepers needs and wants. how do you justify that? or have you even thought about it? i think that reflects poorly on you.

i don't understand why you waste time with this project. if you produced as many pure flavies as cross breeds, maybe they would be a little more common. i don't care if they cost more money. it's not about that.

and to aswer your last question. no i don't know all the color variations. there's a real good chance that i could identify a pure species with-in the gouldi complex, but as far as knowing all the variations in color and what not... no, i can't claim that.i havn't even been to oz yet to see them run wild. if mother nature decides to cross breed species to creat new ones... that's natures way. when we do it, it's synthetic and a waste. but that's just my opinion.

cheers
shay

If you would take the time to put this stuff into prespective, If the tables were turned and you had my experience and I had yours, you would be saying that to me. And you would be correct in doing so.

What you seem to forget is, I too did not have any real understanding at one time. It took many years and lots and lots of generations of monitors to start to give me some understanding.

So without question, with my experience level, you don't. Sorry, its the truth. I did not say you were stupid and will never understand them. I am sure you will if you keep it up and work hard for years and years. I would hope that you will gain experience and understanding as you go along.

In fact, for you to think of us as equals is kinda insulting to me. I mean, you have worked with Argus for a short time. Comparatively speaking. And I have worked successfully with over twenty species for generations over over generations for many years. Do you really think we should precieve these things the same?

But, what about the subject, you still have offered nothing more then prejudice in your comments about crosses. all you seem to care about is how you come off. I don't care how you or I come off. Never did.

Hey, how about if I made naive statements with no reasoning, what would you say? Cheers

after rereading my last post, i'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that that i think we're on the same playing field. i'm not trying to pretend that i'm on your level of knowledge and experience or the other way around. so don't be insulted.
but this conversation isn't about knowledge and experience that you have so much more of. it's about whether cross breeding is responsible or not. i don't think that it is, and i stand behind the reasons i mentioned. it's not about me, it's about the species. those who want and buy a cross breed for the reasons you stated is all about the keeper, not the species.

cheers
shay

how about keeping it about monitors, If you precieve I took a jab at you(as you say) how about ducking and hitting me with some reasons you feel crosses are not recomended.

IF you feel I made a reasonable case, and I surely feel I did, then say your right about that. Then we can move on to the next level of agreement or disagreement.

about crosses, they are kinda like species, you do not have to keep them. You can pick and choose any species thats here in the states.

About crosses and nature, they may or may not be of anything meaningful to nature. Time will tell.

About captivity, I feel for the reasons mentioned already, that crosses are very important to captivity.

If you are lamenting about Flavis not being so common in the states, then please by all means get off your bum and get too it. I see they are available and for sale. So indeed they are available to you.

If you have any other reasons for not recomending crosses, then please by all means bring it up.

But you going on and on about your feelings is plain sad. Again, about the jabs, sir, its not the jabs that will take you out. Don't worry about them. Specially when there are so many other things to worry about. Cheers

it's like you havn't read anything i've said. you don't respond to my questions, you don't acknowledge my reasons for my opinion. you think i'm concerned about my feelings. this has been about monitors. i mentioned you taking a shot only once and i was amused by it. we're past that. no one's talking about feelings.

i would love to work with flavies some day, but i'm committed to panoptes right now. i'm trying to work out 2 or 3 good pairs that will produce year after year for me. most are two young right now. but next June is when i expect the magic to start hapening. i don't have the room for an additional pair of something else. when i move to a larger property(hopefully soon), i'll add different species to my care.

cheers
shay

understanding monitors. This is were levels of experience show.

You said, your trying to get 2 or 3 pairs of argus. Why? are you going to become a mass producer of argus?

You see, those with argus experience "understand" one working pair will burying you in offspring. They will make enough to sell without having to drop prices much.

You see, thats experience. People without understanding of what successful monitors do, think you need 2 or 3 pair to achieve success. Which is nearly backward. Three pair complicates the chances of good success, particularly if your support(space) is limited.

Again, one good pair can produce over 50 offspring a year, why do you want more? What are you going to do with 150 or more offspring?

Also, if you understood argus, you do not have to wait for spring, they reproduce when you feed them. If your females are over two foot and you feed them, you should get offspring, anytime of year. Sir, thats reality. That is understanding argus. If you don't its because your missing something. Or trying not to, and trying very hard. Cheers

yes Frank, i'm trying very hard to not understand. lol

i'm working on 2 or 3 pairs not only to reproduce, but to have different individuals with different personalities to learn from. plus i may not get 2 or three good pairs with what i have. i may only get 1. plus the more individuals of one species i work with the more i get to know what that species is all about. you can only learn so much by reading. but of course you already know that. by the way it was you that inspired me to work with groups of monitors in the first place. even when i heed your advice you ask why i do what i do.

i currently have a 4 year old male (i've posted pictures of him), and i have 4 juvies a little over 5 months being raised in a group. well 3 are in a group, the other one was too dominate and wouldn't play nice. it's my experience and others i've talked to that female argus will begin to cycle at around 12 months old, give or take. (what's your experience?) and do so like clockwork every 2 to 3 months there after. so June is when i'm assuming it will all begin with my juvies. if it happens before that... wonderful, i'm ready.

cheers
shay

To make this clear and not just about jabbing at you.(so you think)

In this post, you are again no different then any newbie with argus. You have some and are raising some, and are going mostly by what you have been told by others. This is clear from your last post.

Its this that allows me to state, you have a lack of understanding of monitors. Again to make it clear, I did not say you had a lack of awareness of what other PEOPLE have said to you, or you read from some writing. SIR understanding what people suggest and what ARGUS do are entirely different, as, not the same.

Heres a few simple examples. First, you say, argus can reproduce at 1 year. This is true, but its also true they can reproduce at six months of age. I have posted that here before/including pics(long before you came along). You then said, they lay every two or three months after that. Sir, they can and do lay every month. They can also lay one or no clutches a year, they can also have nothing but infertile eggs, they can also become eggbound and die, or they get fatty liver disease, or they can never grow to their potential or they can become giant fat lizards, or grow healthy and strong.

If your understood monitors, you would understand that all monitors have a potential(genetic) this potential is controlled by their enviornment and support in nature. All the above and more is included in this potential. In captivity, we are and provide the enviornment and support. We, the keepers are the support and the enviornment.

We control where in that potential our captive animals will work. I say work, because if you understand monitors, they can work well one day/week/month/year/life, and not the next. Depending on our work. They the monitors work with what we provide them, they achieve whatever level of their potential, based on what we provide them.

To be more specific, not what "we" give them. But in this case, WHAT YOU GIVE them. You are the variable, you are the support, you are the enviornment. Not me, not anyone who talked to you, you you you SIR. In a sense, you and your monitors are a team. Only in most cases, the humans are really poor team members, they are all about themselves and not the team.

What makes you naive is, you have no belief in you, you have belief in others(common with those with no expertise) on this forum and rampant in the monitor world. You plan on what others tell you. that last sentence is key to future understanting

Your mistake is like most others including the highly educated(by reading not doing). They believe in people, other people, and not the animals. The animal is the BOOK, these fine folks are out of context.

When you gain a varanid understanding, you will throw out the current wave of people and believe in the animals. As they are the book. They are the constant, they are the focus and the center. As far as I can tell, it appears the people are a bunch of babbling dingbats. These dingbats go around babbling to one another instead of actually allowing the center of attention, the focus, the monitors, to express their god/nature givin abilities.

So yea, thats why I have the attitude I have. Thats why I say things like, your have little/no/limited understanding of monitors. You don't, your understanding is from what other(dingbats) tell you. Which as history have shown, has little to do with monitors.

My attitude is base on you and folks like you, attacking me, with your knowledge gained from a group mentality. Sir, come and attack me when you get actual REAL monitor experience. You, all by yourself, one on one. That will be fun.

The problem is, you will never catch me. Oh, until I die or stop working with monitors. You see, you hope to build a facility that will allow you to learn. The problem is, I built a facility of learning 15 yrs ago. And its been running ever since and its still going. Headstart program hey.

To learn about monitors in captivity you must have varied conditions to keep them in. Then test them under these varied conditions. Comparative results and all. I have done and are continuing to do that. You are hoping to start. With this in mind, how could you understand me. You shouldn't be able to. You have a lack of common knowledge. You see, what you hope to do, I did for many many years.

Sir, this is only one area of understanding. There are more. Only the more becomes about you the keeper and your intentions. The reality of keeping monitors is based on how much work your willing to do and how willing your are to be repetitive. Like how many years will you do the same thing, over and over and over and over. Just a tiny example U C. Or how active your mind is, how many times can you do the same thing differently. Can you create fun and entertainment form boredom? these become important

Ok, theres more, ahahhauahahahahahhadhdhdhahahhhehe. Yes there is, but I will save that for another time. You see, experience is odd, it changes things. Like over years and years, monitors are all the same, that is, they are different species that do different things in nature, but their basic requirements for continued exsistance(in captivity or nature) is very much the same. The longer you do it, the more the same it is. Which leads to a very good question, which is rare around here. After you have repetitively reached the end result of living animals, multiple generations, WHERE DO YOU GO FROM THERE? Cheers and heres to good questions

roger that frank. i refuse to explain to you how you didn't understand my last post, and how you went off on a tangent based on assumptions. what i said about argus was my own experience backed up by other peoples experiences that were similar to mine. i have plenty of belief in myself.

you're a grumpy old man with lots of experience, and you seem paranoid that people are chasing you down and trying to be better than you. maybe some are. but regardless of our differences, i'm just trying to learn as much as i can from your experience in keeping and breeding. not to be better than you, but to better my own knowledge. so relax.

not that i don't believe you but do you have pictures of a 6 month old argus monitor that cycled? i've never heard of one that young laying eggs.

cheers
shay

I started a new thread (less digression from the current thread started as "what monitor to keep" with a question addressed to you and others with your (lack of?) reflection about what conservation means. You denounced breeding crosses and I'm curious why. Why you or anyone else who keeps monitors, or anything, captive, justifies such a stance?

You never gave any answers, other than "polluted" (with regard to what?) and not "pure" (why does that matter with captives?).

Consider reading that little post above (crosses and conservation or something) and responding to it. I was deprived as a child and now I need attention.

Let me think, I repeatedly laugh, this is laughing, hahahahahahahahahahaha. I often start followups with this, hahahahahahahahha. I often end them with, hahahahahahahahaha, I even included them after and in different paragraphs. What that means is, I think its funny, as in, I have a sense of humor, of course having one does not mean I laugh at the right things, hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I am a sad old man hey, funny(hahahahahaha) then why am I always laughing?

Again the boat sailed off without you. I do not have problems with monitors, They bred here continiously. And surely that does not make me better then anybody, it only allows my monitors the support to reproduce of a very common basis. I have had monitor eggs in the incubator since 1991 without missing a single day. Pretty regular I would say.

What that does is allow me to laugh, be funny, and pull your chain, because it in no way effects me. I do not gain from talking to you. Sad, but true. All I can hope to do is get you thinking. Which as many know is "all I ask". Again, what I say to you, is OF no benefit to me. Except if it happens to make me laugh, ahhahahahahahahaha and it does.

If you think I am grumpy or even old, OK, I hear 59 is the old 25(wheres the girls) your kinda mistaken. I also do these things for exercise. Its kinda like doing pushups, you don't like doing them until you do them, then they are fun. My record for pushups is 409 in a row(absolute truth) So I must be kinda thick headed, both in doing pushups and doing this. ITs so much fun, I cannot stop. Keeps me young I guess.

If you had a sense of humor you would look at what I write as funny, then it could not offend you. The truth is, its not suppose to offend you, and it is funny.

Man, you can drift from a thread, as you still refuse to talk about a very interesting subject, you know, why you did the cross comments, without any reason, other then being prejudice. Prejudice is both funny and serious. Cheers

Frank if you were here you'd hear me laugh quite a bit as i read through your posts. it just feels silly to spell it out.

i'm not to sure i'm getting anything out of this conversation either. all the questions i've asked that were of interest to me were not acknowledged. such as...
"you provided reasons for your opinion that seems to be hypocritical of your beliefs. manipulating the animal to better suit a keepers needs and wants instead of the keeper making adjustments to better suit the animal. HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT? or HAVE YOU EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT?" there was others, but now i'm too lazy to reread all the posts.
if you're not going to respond to questions on this topic, why should i continue? i'm only talking to myself. what's the point? changing the subject actually got you to respond to something i said...hahahaha how do you like that? cheers

Your the one who twists and turns what I say. You do understand, if you get confused, you can ask for me to clarify. Instead, you put in your own meaning and then fail to understand.

For instance. You said, "manipulating the animal to better suit a keepers needs and wants instead of the keeper making adjustments to better suit the animal. I did not say or insinuate this. I simply said, crosses seem to be more generalized and are easier to view behavior. The rest was in your brain.

You also said, i'm too lazy to reread all the posts.
I guess it would be hard to carry on a conversation with you if your to lazy to read or reread the post.

See how fun dividing up posts can be. Cheers

ok, lets recap

this is why i said you manipulate the animal to better suit the keepers needs.

FR; "It takes the wild edge off. In other words, their behavior is much easier for us simple humans to understand and enjoy."

this statement sounds like you're altering an animal in a way that helps a keeper. i used the word manipulate to express this thought. i don't think i'm twisting your words, they were already twisted. this is not about the animal it's about you. -isn't that your line?

you also said this

FR; "the only thing crossing these monitors does is, kinda takes the wild edge off, and in most cases, that is a very very good thing. It kinda makes them good beginer or good teaching monitors."

-if a newbie needs to start with an altered animal because a pure species is just too wild and difficult, maybe he should stick to puppies.

another FR quote; Also your "we won't be able to have them", refering to pure flavis is funny. The truth is, we were never suppose to have them. But we did
so i ask you... now that we do have them why not breed them as much as possible like you did with ackies? why waste time mixing something we're lucky to have?

if i seem to be confused about something you said, please clear it up. i'm not interested in twisting words, that's just a waste of time. cheers

Depends on what 'good' means. What characteristics are you looking for?