Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I mentioned this way down, and it might not have been read by all.... my baby box eats one worm a day, the worm the length of the baby from head to tail stretched out, maybe even a little longer. I don't how it all fits inside the little turtle. Is it possible my baby three-toed is eating too much? only earthworms, no high-fat waxworms, and always dusted, so low in fat and high in nutrients.

One worm a day...I'm all for it! Nice job!

I still say that fat can be your friend with young turtles. I strongly recommend that you add in some other feeder insects...fatty or not. Dusting is good, but variety is better. Combine the two, and it's hard to go wrong.

Based on your first post, when you described the troubles that you were having, it's wonderful that this turtle is doing and eating well. Kudos for the great turn-around!

>>One worm a day...I'm all for it! Nice job!

>>I still say that fat can be your friend with young turtles. I strongly recommend that you add in some other feeder insects...fatty or not. Dusting is good, but variety is better. Combine the two, and it's hard to go wrong.

>>Based on your first post, when you described the troubles that you were having, it's wonderful that this turtle is doing and eating well. Kudos for the great turn-around!

Thanks to you! The moist Sphagnum really made the fella stronger.

So go ahead and give him/her waxworms? 1/2 the time? 1/3 the of the time?

>>I still say that fat can be your friend with young turtles. I strongly recommend that you add in some other feeder insects...fatty or not. Dusting is good, but variety is better. Combine the two, and it's hard to go wrong.

>>Based on your first post, when you described the troubles that you were having, it's wonderful that this turtle is doing and eating well. Kudos for the great turn-around!

I have to note: worms are not insects!

What else might I try besides waxworms? When I gave the little fella meal worms, he/she could not ingest them well because of the tough outer layers.

The local pet store does not stock "pins" (those are super-tiny crickets, right?).

BTW, about this turtle.... if is a male, his name will be Floyd, after a boxer from the Grand Rapids area (family name: Mayweater). I was thinking of TH 2 - after the first Timothy Herman - but I don't like that much (and they're not related like father and son)

>>BTW, about this turtle.... if is a male, his name will be Floyd, after a boxer from the Grand Rapids area (family name: Mayweater). I was thinking of TH 2 - after the first Timothy Herman - but I don't like that much (and they're not related like father and son)

Of course, John Paul II was not related to John Paul I, so T.H. 2 could be the little turtle's name.

"he" ate nothing today when I took him out of the Sphagnum about noon - maybe because "he" ate late (6:00pm) and a lot yesterday, and spent most of his time in the cooler Sphagnum area between feedings.

BTW, my hatchling has the option to be at higher than "room temp" during the night - I have a hot rock under the tank that he sometimes stays on the edge of at night.

...here. I doubt a worm a day will do anything other than make your turtle grow faster, as long as your critter stays at good temperatures for metabolizing all that food.

But, food's not all it's eating. Those supplement powders are a separate consideration. Just because an animal eats every day doesn't mean it needs supplement every day (I know, Centrum and One-A-Day have us believe otherwise).

Have you discussed what excess dietary calcium has done to reptiles when supplied in excess? What about fat-soluble vitamins? Better still, have you seen the effect of either? I'm conservative when using things I don't understand well. Then again, I don't use supplements at all.

>>...here. I doubt a worm a day will do anything other than make your turtle grow faster, as long as your critter stays at good temperatures for metabolizing all that food.

>>But, food's not all it's eating. Those supplement powders are a separate consideration. Just because an animal eats every day doesn't mean it needs supplement every day (I know, Centrum and One-A-Day have us believe otherwise).

>>Have you discussed what excess dietary calcium has done to reptiles when supplied in excess? What about fat-soluble vitamins? Better still, have you seen the effect of either? I'm conservative when using things I don't understand well. Then again, I don't use supplements at all.

Are you saying there are negative side-effects to the calcium and other nutrients? If so, what are they? Does everyone here believe the cause-and-effect relationship?

I dust because I remember one person's post, I think kensopher's, saying he switches between calcium and multi-vitamin/mineral every time he feeds.

Of course there's a cause and effect relationship with supplements - that's what they're intended for. You supply them to the animal (cause) and they give the animal a certain metabolic effect(s).

That expression, too much of a good thing...

Imagine if someone covered every meal of yours with flour, only the flour was all vitamins and minerals. How long before your body maxes out? I don't have an answer for a box turtle under that regime, maybe you or someone else will find an answer. Maybe this week, maybe next, maybe ten years, maybe never.

Some lizard species prone to calcium defficiencies have been oversupplemented by breeders, resulting in occasions where organs calcify. Excess fat-soluble vitamins can't be filtered out rapidly by the body - I assume sluggish turtle metabolisms to be no more efficient at this. Oversupplementation of some vitamins has been known to have toxic effects.

I don't know which supplement brands you're using - they'll have directions on the labels. Do they say use each feeding, or every day? Do they say not to? Do you have any basis for either approach besides what the next person has done with his/her animal(s)? The bottom line is that supplements need to be used with at least some reserve - even the label directions will inform you of that.

I've heard of the calcification of organs, and of hypervitaminosis. Vitamin A has been particularly implicated in causing problems, which is why many supplements have switched to using Beta Carotene as the source for vitamin A. It is apparently much less likely to cause problems. The fact that the information regarding negative effects of supplements is so scant, as you pointed out, does make the balancing act difficult.

I have to admit that I used to be like you. I scoffed at the supplements, and my turtles suffered because of it. I got strange, uneven, and slow growth until I finally put the turtles outdoors at about 3 inches. Now, with the combination of lighting and supplementation, I get better growth indoors than out. I also have less "failure to thrives" ,a.k.a. less hatchlings die.

I should be more specific. I don't supplement EVERY feeding after one month of age. From hatchling to one month, I only offer live feeders. I offer them either every day or every other day, depending on how busy I am. I alternate dusting with calcium and multivitamin at each feeding. Then, I add in some non-living items at one month of age. I soak Reptomin until it's soupy. Then I mix in extremely finely chopped kale and turnip greens at a ration of 2 greens to 1 Reptomin by volume. Then, I roll it into little balls, freeze them on wax paper, bag 'em up, and thaw them as needed. Lately, I haven't been adding any supplements to that concoction, since they've altered the recipe. They get this about once weekly. Then, twice weekly, they get tomatoes, squash, sweet potatoes, greens, cucumber, and tons of other veggies as I find them in my fridge. So, really, my turtles are only getting dusted feeders two to three times per week. I still alternate between calcium and multivitamin on the feeders. I've also been experimenting with liquid calcium and vitamin supplements, and I like their ease of use so far. But, it's six of one and half a dozen of another. The purpose of this paragraph is not to tell you what to do, but merely to illustrate that I don't stick a funnel in the turtles' mouths and pour vitamins into them.

Casi...you once indicated that you don't give your eggs or hatchlings any special care. You seemed to state that you maintain your box turtles in outdoor pens, and leave the hatchlings to fight for themselves. Is this still correct? I'm not saying that it's wrong...it's probably a better way of ensuring that you raise the "fittest" hatchlings, but it could be the reason why you don't have to supplement. Once mine go outdoors, with the exception of gravid females, I don't supplement more than once a month at most.

The reason that we have to supplement is not only because we can't offer the variety of food items available outdoors, but also because our feeders are most commonly gutloaded with only one thing...potatoes. If you can catch live insects outdoors in a pesticide free environment, or gut-load your insects with really high quality and varied vegetation, supplementation becomes less necessary.

For what it's worth, I have one caveat...I've been injection the liquid supplements into earthworms before I offer them to my aquatics. I've noticed that if I overdo it, they will go off of feeding for several days. It appears as if they have a "stomach ache". I've stopped doing this altogether, as it made me nervous. That's what I get for trying to fix a problem that didn't exist, as I've never had a problem with growth and health in my aquatics. Box turtles are another story.

Sorry for the long and boring post.

Ken, on some days I look at our cat and think I'd like this for reincarnation, please. Now I think maybe a box turtle at your place. Minus the supplements (haha).

I think the tricky thing for some of you is objective. Many of you have the objective to nurture your babies. I don't want to nurture baby box turtles because I know better. I know I don't have to. I've nurtured them and I've not nurtured them, and as long as I supply for a few key needs, they do the same thing (grow).

I read somewhere that John Travolta, a germophobe, poisoned his kids (not to death) from using too much antibiotic cleaning agent in the house. How's that for well-intentioned use of a health agent gone overdose?

Baby box turtles are easy as long as a few key needs are met, and I haven't found one of these to be supplementing the diet. That's why I'm a skeptic about using more supplement than the directions recommend.

I don't usually keep hatchling box turtles outside. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I let them hibernate. Not every hatchling makes it through hibernation. Would things have been different in the wild? Did I rob this little one of life?

Mostly I keep hatchlings inside. They're easier for me to manage the way I set them up inside. My setup would make some people gasp (in a bad way), and then the thoughtful gaspers of the group would ask how I make the babies grow so well. Funny, hey?

People who buy babies, relying on those few animals, seem to feel an acute need to nurture even though not all babies thrive. It doesn't tear me up when one I hatch isn't cut out for life (uncommon) because I know that this is how life works. When you narrow your vision down to one animal, that's a way harder concept to stomach.

I could rev up on the pesticides, too, but I've talked long enough now.

I understand what you're saying, and I vacillate back and forth between doting and laissez-faire. Right now, I'd describe my husbandry as the former for hatchlings, and the latter for older juveniles and adults. I give them a great headstart (in my opinion anyway). I do everything I possibly can when they're inside. Maybe I'm delaying the inevitable, but I've had very few problems after placing the turtles outdoors for the past few years. Once they go outdoors, I'm much less hands on. I'll go a week or two without even seeing some of my adults. I don't get concerned unless the food stops being taken off of the plate.

I've tried TONS of different hatchling care methods. I probably wouldn't gasp because I've probably tried it. Let me guess...sweater boxes in shallow water? Hey man, if it works for ya...it's hard to argue with that. I wouldn't recommend it for a novice. And that's the main purpose of my being on this forum, to help people that ask for it. If and when they get a better understanding, they'll toss my recommendations out the window and establish their own system.

I still can't grasp how you can get away with not supplementing. If the hatchlings had access to a large variety of wild caught invertebrates, sure, you could get away with it. But for a guy to offer only what's available at a bait shop, and you feel that he doesn't need to supplement...uh oh, my turtles' shells are starting to curl up just from me thinking about it.

Hmm, the John Travolta story...that gives new meaning to Saturday Night Fever...

No shallow water in sweater boxes here. I've done it a couple times. I've spoken to a guy or two who always did it, but using that approach is useless to me for multiple reasons. I try to find a species' few necessities and then find the most practical (time/effort, space, $$ ) ways to provide for those necessities.

With hatchling box turtles, it's very easy to do this. But, many folks are too nervous about goofing up, and that fear of goofing up can make them goof up, like stress from an exam or audit or whatever sinks your boat.

Your approach to discussing hatchling care is valued by many. People who are nervous, new, want to hear complex list approaches because they sound bullet-proof to nurturers. People with a single tiny pet or two don't want to learn by ANY trial and error. It's too high stakes.

Still, you don't need supplements if your hatchlings get any pellets. The supplements are in there. Bait store worms, they don't have anything but bigger animals' poop inside. No supplement will fix that problem.

"Still, you don't need supplements if your hatchlings get any pellets. The supplements are in there."

GASP! I'd have to strongly disagree with that statement. The problem is, the companies formulating these diets can't decide if they want a box turtle to be a slider or a tortoise...fish or alfalfa? They have yet to create an adequate hatchling/yearling/young juvenile box turtle prepared food. The several brands of pellets that I currently have don't list anything beyond 7 nutrients. One only lists 4. There are statements like, "nutritionally complete" or "nutritionally balanced". For what? Nutritional requirements vary tremendously.

Like you once said, someone needs to make an "earthworm" pellet.

Slider. That's easy. More protein as a youngster, more appreciation for vegetation later.

You say pellets aren't adequate? I can show you pellets can be adequate. You're confusing adequate with optimal. Pellets might not be optimal... I can't prove they are, then again, you can't prove they're not. But I can show they work, and that's all that matters.

Don't expect food manufacturers to agree on what should be inside; those differences will only grow with time. Look at cat food and dog food companies - there's more variety among premium brands than generic brands - shoudn't the premium brands have formulas such that there's little room for arguement by now? Or at least, not room for the MOST arguement!?

The important thing to remember is that food is only one important factor of several to hatchling box turtles. I haven't found it to be the most crucial. No diet, pellets, worms with supplements, worms without supplements, smorgasboard, will work if the other needs aren't met. Still, diet seems to be the biggest concern and hangup for people with hatchling box turtles. I've never gotten that.

The guys below hatched in the middle of September. The one on the far right was the only that didn't take pellets from the start (all waited about a month before eating anything), and needed a couple worms to get going. It's the smallest, lightest one in the batch. Darned pellets...

Wrong!...the answer is neither. A box turtle is a box turtle.

My issue was with this statement specifically. Not your other points, just this statement...
"Still, you don't need supplements if your hatchlings get any pellets. The supplements are in there."

Hmmm, whups, you're RIGHT!!! I just looked it up in some books -

s-l-i-d-e-r... Trachemys scripta...
b-o-x t-u-r-t-l-e... Terrapene carolina/ornata.

Definitely not the same critters judging from the pictures. But, the books don't say anything about pellets vs. shotgun supplements diets, and people have raised many of both species on an identical, pellet diet. In captivity, it's all the other "key" points that make box turtles box turtles, and sliders sliders.

I knew you'd like my brilliant trick question. Man, right in the trap you did fall.

Alas, I'm spent. Clearly you and I could argue our inexact opinions, followed up by inadequate research, and show pictures of our perfect hatchlings raised on the 'all banana pudding diet' as irrefutable proof. As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Supplements are bad! Well, unless they're in pellets. Then, they're good! I wrote it down in case I forget.

Pellets are like Fox News...fair and balanced. Supplements are like CNN...they'll kill ya.

I'm emphatically joking.

"Pellets are like Fox News...fair and balanced. Supplements are like CNN...they'll kill ya."

*That's me gasping for air while I laugh.

Ken said:
> The problem is, the companies formulating these diets can't decide if they want a box turtle to be a slider or a tortoise...fish or alfalfa? They have yet to create an adequate hatchling/yearling/young juvenile box turtle prepared food. The several brands of pellets that I currently have don't list anything beyond 7 nutrients. One only lists 4. There are statements like, "nutritionally complete" or "nutritionally balanced". For what? Nutritional requirements vary tremendously.
>>
>>Like you once said, someone needs to make an "earthworm" pellet.

This is why I don't use pellets very often. The only chelonians I have that get any at all are the 2 aquatics, of those 2 the yellow mud will seldom touch them. I switched the painted to Jurrasi brand because I like the fact it has no soy in it.
He prefers live food over pellets but he'll eat the Jurrasi brand.. neither of them will eat Reptomin.
The box turtles all refuse pellets anyway.. the only time I've used pellets for a box was for Hope.. the one I took in after her double ear abcesses had been repaired and her eyes were still closed. She ate pellet mush for almost 2 days then her eyes opened. Once that happened she ate live food on her own & wouldn't touch a pellet ever again.

Because each individual species nutritional needs have not been thoroughly researched the way dog, cat, rodent, horse diets have been.. I don't trust the pellet foods.
-----
PHRatz

>>I should be more specific. I don't supplement EVERY feeding after one month of age. From hatchling to one month, I only offer live feeders. I offer them either every day or every other day, depending on how busy I am. I alternate dusting with calcium and multivitamin at each feeding. Then, I add in some non-living items at one month of age. I soak Reptomin until it's soupy. Then I mix in extremely finely chopped kale and turnip greens at a ration of 2 greens to 1 Reptomin by volume. Then, I roll it into little balls, freeze them on wax paper, bag 'em up, and thaw them as needed. Lately, I haven't been adding any supplements to that concoction, since they've altered the recipe. They get this about once weekly. Then, twice weekly, they get tomatoes, squash, sweet potatoes, greens, cucumber, and tons of other veggies as I find them in my fridge. So, really, my turtles are only getting dusted feeders two to three times per week. I still alternate between calcium and multivitamin on the feeders. I've also been experimenting with liquid calcium and vitamin supplements, and I like their ease of use so far. But, it's six of one and half a dozen of another. The purpose of this paragraph is not to tell you what to do, but merely to illustrate that I don't stick a funnel in the turtles' mouths and pour vitamins into them.

How am I to know how old my little one is? Should I be offering more than wax worms and earthworms, some fruit/veggie?

You should be offering as much as you possibly can.

Yes, add in veggies now. Three-toes are particularly likely to begin accepting veggies at an early age. Cucumber and yellow squash are favorites of my hatchlings. When I feed mine fruit, they get runny stool. I rarely feed the youngest turtles fruit because of this.

My baby Kibbles so far has been given crickets, wax worms, meal worms, baby roaches, phoenix worms, some sort of larva that I find in the store bought crickets now & then.. baby likes it all but I did find that baby doesn't digest meal worms very well so I stopped offering those.
Yesterday Kibbles ate a bite of cactus berry.
This is how I raised my 2 aquatics from hatchlings.. with the widest variety of foods I could find.
I'm a huge believer in variety being the key to good health.
Offer as many different and appropriate food items that you can.
-----
PHRatz

I don't have a computer online at home, so I don't have the mulit-vitamin/mineral, but I did take my calcium supplement with me to the computere.

It's Fluker's Dietary Supplement * Repta-Calcium * An Essential Nutrient for All Reptiles in an Easy to Serve Powder Form

Says on it "Feeding Instructions": For daily use.

Since I read your first post, I did look more closely at what is written on the supplement. Its says

"Preferable for reptiles and/or amphibians who eat large amounts of crickets, mealworms, wax worms, mice, etc., all of which are high in phosphorus. For pets consuming small amounts of these items, use Fluker's Calciumhosphorus 2:1."

Am I right to assume that earthworms contain high amounts of phosphorus? All those types of feeders listed in that quote are animals; maybe only vegetation fed to pets ought to not get this calcium supplement?