Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all. I am looking at getting a pair of Bulls. I can't decide between Salt and Pepper or Ghost (Hypo White Sided). Could someone please post pics of what these look like as adults?

Thanks,
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
4.3.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Everglades Rat Snakes
1.0.0 Baird's Rat Snake
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
2.1.0 Sonoran Gopher Snake
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
1.1.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
0.1.0 Tangerine Honduran Milksnake
1.0.0 Honduran Milksnake
1.2.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.0.0 Western Hognose
0.1.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

here's an adult male salt 'n pepper steve. i have a ghost female but no pics of her. she looks fairly similar only more 'cleaned up' i'd guess you'd say. although usually gentle, this guy does have a pretty vicious feeding response & you can see a medium rat in him in this pic......

thanks for the Pic, Dan. Beautiful snake!
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
4.3.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Everglades Rat Snakes
1.0.0 Baird's Rat Snake
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
2.1.0 Sonoran Gopher Snake
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
1.1.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
0.1.0 Tangerine Honduran Milksnake
1.0.0 Honduran Milksnake
1.2.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.0.0 Western Hognose
0.1.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

Here is my adult male ghost or hypo white sided.

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Genesis 1:1

Hypo whiteside and ghost are two seperate morphs from what I've been told by many breeders. Hypo whitesides have alot more yellow and ghosts have more gray. There was a post on here a while ago with two young bullsnakes, one ghost and one hypo-whitesid, side by side and there was a big difference.

Here is a picture of an adult ghost.

In the next two years the classifieds will be a mess and many will say they have "true" Ghosts. This is because ALL "Ghosts" up until this year [if I am not mistaken} have been Hypo White Sides. Now that there are real Axanthic Bulls to breed to Albinos and Hypos there's going to be true Ghosts and Snows, any adults as of now are all Hypo White Sides and Albino White Sides. The color of the old not exactly correctly labeled Ghosts doesn't mean anything, they're all Hypo White Sides. If anyone thinks they have a true Ghost, especially an Adult from a pair of double het for Axanthic X Hypo I'd like to see it.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Interesting discussion, not to hijack the thread, does anyone know if there are any true ghosts or true snows right now?

I have a pair of adult bulls, both double het. for axanthic & albino, who knows what will come of it... should be fun.
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2.0 Snow Corns
1.2 Normal Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.2 Creamsicle Corns
0.1 Amelanistic Corns
0.1 Anerythristic A Corns
1.1 Amelanistic San Diego Gophers
0.1 Hypo Sonoran Gopher
1.0 Sonoran Gopher
1.0 Cape Gopher Het. Albino
1.0 Sunglow Sonoran Gopher
1.1 Bull Het. Albino/Axanthic
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.1 Everglades Rat Het. Albino
0.1 White Side Everglades Rat
1.0 Albino Striped Cal. King
0.1 Striped Cal. King
0.0.1 Cal. King
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1 African Fat Tail Gecko
0.2 Cat
0.1 Dog
0.1 Friend
jswanson737@hotmail.com

I know Jason at Envy produced one or two but since they came from multi het projects they were Patternless Ghosts or White Sided Ghosts,,,,I can not recall but he did post pics. Since this forum does not move as quckly as others it can't be too far back...you could also do a search for True Ghosts. I will ask Jason if he can chime in too. I can't wait to see the real deal. I will like the White Sided versions just the same as they're killer animals but as I mentioned....the new ones will probably be more costly and then everyone who is working with the old ones will claim there's are the real deal....it's gonna get messy if we don't start attempting to label all morphs of Pits properly soon. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

There is True Ghost out there. There is a good hand full of true Whitesided Ghost, a couple Patternless Ghost but no Pattern Ghost and those are going outstanding, at least I think I could be wrong but time will tell.

No True Snows that I'am aware of. I bet some pop up next fall though. I have a chance to produce some from triple hets and I know there is several other people that do too. I think the True Patterned Snows are going to be very nice, time will tell on them as well.

Jason

But are there any adults you know of??? Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

This is what I want to know! I've seen Jason Nelson's True Ghosts on his site. I was wondering what the difference was. So a S&P Bull is basically just a dirty White Sided Bull?
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
4.3.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Everglades Rat Snakes
1.0.0 Baird's Rat Snake
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
2.1.0 Sonoran Gopher Snake
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
1.1.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
0.1.0 Tangerine Honduran Milksnake
1.0.0 Honduran Milksnake
1.2.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.0.0 Western Hognose
0.1.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

Well back to my subject of labeling things properly....
I can not truly give you acurate definition of a Salt n Pepper Bull, but there's also Speckled Bulls that don't truly appear Speckled...but I think the snakes that started that particular line were Speckled? Can't say for sure. It is a bit of a touchy subject as some people will be on the defensive since they were sold snakes from reputable people that were labeled this n that but it seems with Pits as far as comparison to other snakes that people forget quickly why a name was applied. It is not always as obvious as we suspect. Another example is Ghost Cal Kings are not from double het for Anery and Hypo....but they look like what we suspect a Ghost would look like...so depending on your opinion it either is or is not a suitable name. I am just the type of person who thinks that wether they exist or not yet....most snakes will eventually have all the common morphs appear since there are so many people breeding snakes these days. Leucistic is the exception, and that is why I am trying to get that straightened out with the Southern Pines. The number of morphs and variants in Pits is on the rise so I am investigating lots of these snakes to find out where they came from and how they got thier names. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

In a sense, yes, a salt and pepper is a "dirty" white sided I guess. The name commonly referred to as ghost is just what they have been saying, a hypo white sided bull. The hypo white sides vary but most should have a faint pattern along the back with definite white sides. The white sided bull will vary also. You have some that have a very clean line along the back and others that are not clean along the sides. This what many refer to as salt and pepper. Speckled = patternless, depends who you talk to.

Scott Robinson

Your right, a Salt and pepper is a dirty Whitesided. A Hypo Whitesided is call a called Ghost but a true Ghost. A Ivory is a Whitesided Ghost9 Axanthic, hypo and Whitesided.

What a mess this is.

jason

Jason,

So when did this all start? What I mean is, there have been bulls that have been called snows and ghosts for a long time. What happened that caused some people to say that those were not true ghosts or snows? How did this way of thinking come about to begin with? I ask cause I seriously do not know and I feel that I may have missed something in all of this. If it is too much to type here on a post, we can just talk about it next time we chat.

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Billy,
We have known this for close to ten years.Its just one of those things that you can't really change because its to long gone.Kinda like when they did the whole blizzard lizard thing when it wasn't made up of a amel and axanthic.

Anyway,the true ghosts (especially miami county axanthic x stillwater hypo) should be off the hook and they will still have there full patterns.

A true snow with lets say,amel and anery or better yet a amel and axanthic should produce blizzards.

Anyway,We will see lots of cool things in the next year or two.

Shannon

Also,When you see triple or quad hets posted and they say"het for salt and pepper,hypo,whitesided and ghost" be carefull.Thats nothing more than a double het.salt and pepper is the same as whitesided and being het for whitesided and hypo is the same as being het for ghost????LOL.....Nothing can be "het for ghost".its double het yes but not het.

if you see a bull called hypo het for ghost its just a hypo het for whitesided.

L8r Shannon

Shannon, that is so true. People have to be so careful of the names so getting them from reputable breeders is highly recommended. I just recently saw a guy at a table that was selling albino applegate bulls???????

Scott Robinson

.

HI Billy

The name changes started a couple years ago when the Axanthic gene started getting added to the mix of all they other color morphs.

Mis labled in the the begaining, the Whitesided gene was thought to be anery gene. Well its not, its a whitesided gene just as it is

The term Ghost means, Anery or Axanthic X Hypo = Ghost
The Term Snow means, Anery or Axanthic X Albino = Snow

Whitesided X Hypo DOES NOT NOT = GHOST, it = Hypo whitesided

Whitesided X Albino DOES NOT = SNOW, it = Albino Whitesided

I hope this makes some sence, it probley just cause more confussion.

Jason

oh no bro, that helps a lot!! Thanks! Let's chat soon!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Ivory bulls are lighter than hypo whitesides. Here is a pic of an Ivory.

Scott Robinson

Nice!! Thanks for the post!
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
4.3.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Everglades Rat Snakes
1.0.0 Baird's Rat Snake
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
2.1.0 Sonoran Gopher Snake
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
1.1.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
0.1.0 Tangerine Honduran Milksnake
1.0.0 Honduran Milksnake
1.2.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.0.0 Western Hognose
0.1.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs

You never cease to amaze me with your beautiful snakes...thanks Billy!
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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
4.3.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Everglades Rat Snakes
1.0.0 Baird's Rat Snake
1.2.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Het Amel San Diego Gopher Snake
2.1.0 Sonoran Gopher Snake
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snake
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
2.1.0 Gray Banded Kingsnakes (1.1 River Road, 1.0 Non-Locale Specific)
0.2.0 California Kingsnakes
0.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
0.1.0 Florida Kingsnake
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor
0.1.0 Dumeril's Boa
1.1.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
0.1.0 Tangerine Honduran Milksnake
1.0.0 Honduran Milksnake
1.2.0 Ball Pythons
1.0.0 Woma Python
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.1.0 Macklot's Pythons
1.0.0 Western Hognose
0.1.0 Blacktail Cribo

LIZARDS
1.0.0 Frilled Dragon
3.1.0 Bearded Dragons (2 Normal, 1 RedXGold, 1 Citrus)
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
0.1.0 Banded Gecko

FROGS
2.2.0 Southern Bell Frogs
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
1.1.1 White's Tree Frogs
0.0.2 Gold Frogs