Reptile & Amphibian Forums

No one answered the question on phosphorus content on earthworms, so I'll try it once again, since some may have just missed it.... or maybe you don't know the answer? I have taken some chemistry as a biology student, but don't know the answer right now.

My container of calcium supplement says:

"Preferable for reptiles and/or amphibians who eat large amounts of crickets, mealworms, wax worms, mice, etc., all of which are high in phosphorus. For pets consuming small amounts of these items, use Fluker's Calciumhosphorus 2:1."

Am I right to assume that earthworms contain high amounts of phosphorus? All those types of feeders listed in that quote are animals; maybe only vegetation fed to pets ought to not get this calcium supplement?

I think this may be something you'd find interesting to read:
Nutrition Advisory

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PHRatz

Thanks! Will read entire article, no conclusions right now, but a scan leads me to think that earthworms are "high" in phosphorus.

The ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus is what you should pay attention to, more than just the % of one or the other present in any given food item.

My calcium supplement bottle says:

"Preferable for reptiles and/or amphibians who eat large amounts of crickets, mealworms, wax worms, mice, etc., all of which are high in phosphorus. For pets consuming small amounts of these items, use Fluker's Calciumhosphorus 2:1."

Steph wrote:

"The ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus is what you should pay attention to, more than just the % of one or the other present in any given food item."

The calciumhoshorus concentrations of earthworms are high compared to the other feeders in that document, but I am sure it is lower than that of mice because of the bones in mice. So I am betting I am safe to use this supplent on earthworms with my 3-toed.

I'm not so sure about mice: bones can have a high phosphorus content, too.
Does anyone have a ratio (Ca) for mice?

Here's a chart that might be helpful:
Link

Thank-you again!

"High calcium diets fed to insects intended as prey items are not designed to meet the nutrient requirements of the insect. These diets are intended to fill the insect’s gastrointestinal tract and provide a more complete nutrient package for the insectivorous animal consuming the insect. Rotating insects onto the high calcium diet and feeding them out on a regular basis is critical. Extended consumption of high calcium diets (particularly by crickets and mealworm larvae) may lead to high insect mortality."

Thanks for posting the article, Phratz. After reading it I wondered if maybe I am over-supplementing my turtles (and my crickets!). Daily, my turtles receive crickets that have been fed Fluker's cricket feed "with Calcium". I was wondering if
it is unnecessary to dust the crickets with calcium if they are already being gut-loaded with calcium. I only feed the turtles dusted crickets once a week.

Also, I seem to have a fairly high mortality rate amongst my crickets. Usually about 1/4 of them die before I have the chance to feed them to the turtles - They are offered the Fluker's water gel and the food I mentioned above. Thanks to that article I think I will start offering the crickets a more varied diet to sustain them longer (and to pass better nutrition onto my herps). Again, thanks for posting.
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1.0.0 Jack Russel Terrier: Skipper
0.1.0 Miniature Pinscher: Bambi
1.1.1 Eastern Box Turtles: Daisy, Dozer, and Magnum
0.1.0 Red Eared Slider: Rosie
0.2.0 Rats: Clementine and Elsie
0.0.2 Rainbow Cichlids

Anyone know: Does "wax moth larvae" = "wax worm"?

Using the info from PHRatz and Steph,

mealworms Ca = .11:.77
mice Ca = .84:.61
earthworms Ca = 1.72:.90

O.K., I think I should probably NOT give my little box turtle the supplement mentioned in my first message of this thread with earthworms.

Thanks for helpingme out.... does anyone know what a Ca/P too high can cause?

Bill

I get a lot of my info from Melissa Kaplan's website.
She's got articles on basically all the questions that have been asked here.
www.anapsid.org

Here's one on what happens when they get too much calcium
http://www.anapsid.org/hypercal.html

Here's one that discusses the ratio for calcium & phosphorus.
http://www.anapsid.org/mbd2.html

Even though a lot of what she has to say is written about iguanas, a lot of it is herp info in general & can apply to all of them. I find it all very handy because it's easy to understand- she writes in plain English.

I think her website can answer a lot of questions for a lot of people.
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PHRatz