Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You may have been following the mulberry tree thread which has transformed into a hornworm thread(my fault). I decided to start a new thread since I was completely off topic.

I recently ordered some hornworms which are currently maturing on chow. I know you can't feed them tomato/tobacco leaves which are the plants they are commonly known to infest since the leaves are toxic and the poisons can be passed on to your chameleon. Prompted by a post by lele in the mulberry discussion, I decided to find out if there are non-toxic plants that hornworms will eat. I discovered they also infest petunias, and petunias are listed as non-toxic on more than one reptile safe plants list. Has anyone ever tried to raise hornworms on petunia, or can anyone confirm that the worms would be safe to feed to a cham? I would also be curious about other caterpillars that grow to a good feeder size that feed on non-toxic plants. I came across a large green caterpillar similar in appearance to a hornworm called the ficus sphinx which eats ficus and other fig trees. Maybe I'll try posting on an insect forum and see what I come up with. You know you are obsessed with chameleons when you start researching bugs on the net.

I'm sure I can speak for others as well when I say we would all appreciate you sharing any knowledge you discover about this topic. Good luck in your search because I myself am curious and will be trying to find out as well

Yes, by all means let us know what you find out!

Kelly B.
The Critter Shack

Yeah, share what you learn.

In regards to alternative food for hornworms, that's good to know however I've never been in the situation where I ran out of the horn worm food that came with the culture. Besides, most people feed off the worms before they fully mature unless you have a larger species of cham.

-roo

Yeah, the 'pods' come with enough food to grow them to feedable size, but I would like to breed them myself in a screen patio without using chow. I was thinking of putting non-toxic host plants as well as plants that provide nectar for the moths in a screened in patio and letting nature take it's course.
Last night I got the idea to search for caterpillars that feed on collard greens, since collard greens have one of nature's best calcium to phosforus ratios(14:1)and you can buy them at any grocery store. I discovered 3 species that are bright green. They only grow 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches so you'd have to feed more of them for larger chams, but my guess is they would be high in calcium and the green color would make them attractive to reptiles. I just have to figure out where I can get a hold of some to experiment with. They are a pest, so I imagine a collard farmer would be glad to let me collect some. The 3 species I'm researching are:
Cabbage Looper - Trichoplusia ni.
European cabbage worm - Pieris rapae
Beet Armyworm - Spodoptera exigu

I've fed cabbage loppers (green catapillers) to my chameleons without issue. Not in large amounts, just what I wild caught, (in my parents organic veggie garden). They were very readily eaten.
They will eat cabbage , broccoli, beets, collards, kale, lettuce, parsley, peas, soybeans, spinach. no doubt others.

I dare say the are likely easy to breed.

I'd be interested to know what you decide on, and how it goes!

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SandraChameleon@gmail.com
BC Canada

Thanks Sandra for the info on cabbage loopers. I've been trying to locate an organic grower in my area to ask them if I could collect them. If I can locate one I'm sure they wouldn't object to me getting rid of the pests for them. I also offered a 1/4 inch petunia leaf to a small hornworm last night and it ate it. I will try separating a hornworm from the pod and feeding it exclusively of petunia then feeding it to a brown anole as a guinea pig.

I would be very careful about feeding your animal wild caught insects. For instance, you can not feed wild caught hornworms to your animals because there is a certain chemical in tomato and tobacco plants that produces a toxin which in turn, the hornworms eat. If you were to feed your animal one of these hornworms, the toxins could severly hurt your animal. I dont know much about any other species but i would suggest feeding ANY kind of insects that are wild caught to your animals just to be safe. Just my thoughts

Thanks for the concern, see my first post on this thread where I mentioned the toxicity of hornworms that feed on tomato. I never mentioned feeding wild caught insects, just collecting them to experiment with breeding them. I plan to work with species that feed on organically grown collard greens, a very nutritious and non-toxic plant. I will be feeding them to cuban brown anoles, a feral species that are all over my backyard. The anoles will basically serve as guinea pigs. I have never considered feeding wild caught insects to my cham, although many experienced breeders do it. There is no way I could be sure insects in my neighborhood have never been exposed to pesticides. I guess those who do use them collect them from organic farms as I plan to and only use insects that are known to feed on non-toxic plants.
Update: I'm also now researching some species of sphinx larva caterpillars closely related to tomato hornworms(they look very similar). One is the hog sphinx, a hornworm that feeds on grape leaves. Grape leaves are also listed as a reptile safe plant. Wild hog sphinx also eat Virginia Creeper vines which are toxic, so they would have to be bred in captivity using only grape leaves. If anybody has any insight on any of the species I mentioned I'd appreciate it. Whew! I've created too many projects for myself. I think it's time to move from the research stage to the development stage.

I know you are doing yours for research and obviously you have done much indepth research. Im sorry if you thought my comment was directed towards you. I just dont think that others, without any form of research should be feeding wild caught insects to their animals. All it takes is one bad insect to kill or make an animal severely sick.

Wild caught insects are ALWAYS a risk.

Here is what I have done so far. I purchased a small collard plant and a small cabbage plant and repotted them in larger containers with organic soil so they will have room to mature. I placed them on my back patio next to a variety of flowering plants that are supposed to attract butterflies and moths. My hope is the adult moths of cabbage worms or loopers will lay thier eggs and later I will collect the larvae and place them in rearing bins where I will feed them on organic collards. The cabbage worms use both cabbage and collards, among other plants as hosts, but I plan to feed collards since they are a proven high calcium food long used as a staple for herbivorus reptiles. They are also cheap and easily available.

As for the hornworm/petunia project. I separated a hornworm from the chow fed pod and offered petunia leaves. He is eating them. I was going to offer the worm to a cuban anole as a test, but I do not believe that will prove a sure enough test. I would have to feed dozens of worms over the course of months to be sure and then even perhaps have the anole tested at a lab for toxins. I don't think the cost or time involved is worth it. The information I have found on petunias is inconsistent. Many sites list it as a safe plant, while others lump them in with other members of the solanacea family. For now I will focus my energies on the cabbage worms. If I am not able to attract them to my yard, I will try to find some at an organic nursery. I'll keep you all posted.
On a side note, I wonder why the people who decided to rear hornworms as a feeder chose tomato worms. There are dozens of similar hornworms that feed on leaves of non-toxic trees which grow in our backyards. Has anyone ever reared these? The pupae are available on insect classifieds.