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Switching from mice to rats

boredfoot Dec 14, 2006 08:58 PM

I've got a ball python that's reached the stage where she'll take two or even three F/T mice a week, and I've been thinking of switching her over to rats.

Last night, I happened to have a small, live rat on hand and substituted that for the first mouse. I know all the hype about not feeding live, which is why I typically don't feed live. Well, I thought maybe if my ball actually "hunted" the first rat and took it that way, she'd get a taste for it.

Turns out, it worked like a charm. She ate the first, then took a second freshly killed rat.

Maybe it made no difference at all and she would have taken rats just as easily as mice. But, if you've got one that isn't interested in F/T rats it might be worth trying. Sure worked for me. Now she's happy as can be with dead rats.

Replies (11)

KellyTCS Dec 14, 2006 09:31 PM

I'm new to this forum, does F/T mean Frozen/Thawed? Just curious and then I'll shut up and just read!

Kelly B.
The Critter Shack

nboles1215 Dec 14, 2006 09:32 PM

Yep............
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Nick

1.2 Normals
1.0 Poss. Het for Carmel Albino
1.0 Dbl Het for Green/Yellow Ghost
1.0 Het Albino
0.1 Snow Corn

CaseyWagner Dec 14, 2006 10:37 PM

Yes, and there is no need to shut up. The more people post on here the more others learn from each other. Inturn giving me more to read. HeHe
Casey

nboles1215 Dec 14, 2006 10:42 PM

Casey....you are so true. My wife makes fun of me because I hit refresh about 100 times per day to check for new posts. LOL!!!
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Nick

1.2 Normals
1.0 Poss. Het for Carmel Albino
1.0 Dbl Het for Green/Yellow Ghost
1.0 Het Albino
0.1 Snow Corn

icywolf Dec 14, 2006 10:53 PM

i am soo jelous of you right now! i have one big male that is taking 100g. f/t rats(which i breed), all of my other snakes are also fine on f/t (mice for the lil kingsnake) and yet no matter what i try, my two youngest balls wont take f/t rats. actually, they wont take f/t anything so i have to buy live mice, which really sucks considering i already breed rats. and on top of it all the petstore we have been getting live mice from for fifteen years is closing this month. its quite hard finding a petstore that sells live feeders anymore, i know the one i work at doesnt. i think i have tried just about all the tricks to switch to frozen and as far as switching to rats, i have put live rat fuzzies in(they were to small to possibly harm either ball) but they just ignore them. if you have any suggestions, feel free cuz im out of ideas, but i definately would love to get all of them on the rats. but ya know, that would just make my life easy, and they of course would never allow that. gotta love 'em.
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*Third Dimension Reptiles*~"a new dimension in exploration"

1.1 green iguanas
1.0 sudan plated lizard
1.0 bearded dragon
0.1 leopard gecko
1.1 golden geckos
1.1 green anoles
0.1 cuban knight anole
1.0 asian longtail grass lizard
0.0.2 gold treefrogs
0.0.1 leopard frog
1.1 normal ball pythons
1.0 het. albino ball python
0.1 gulf hammock ratsnake
0.1 eastern kingsnake
1.0 albino striped california kingsnake
0.1 hedgehog
2.3 rats
0.1 husky
55 gal. freshwater aquarium

amarilrose Dec 15, 2006 10:53 AM

If you are already familiar with breeding rats, and have such dedicated mouse eaters, why not buy some extra mice from your favorite pet store before it goes out of business, and start breeding mice? They stink more than rats, and move faster. I've bred both before and I honestly hate mice, but if that is what you really need to feed your snakes, you can save a ton of money by breeding your own.

You can also get the added bonus of feeling more confident about the nutrient value and overall health of the mice you are feeding to your animals.

Email me if you would like some tips on what we used for caging and male/female ratios, etc.

Good luck!
~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

thebigsquease Dec 15, 2006 08:50 AM

I avoid the issue of switch from mice to rats, by.... not starting them on mice. Animals I produce myself, their first meal is a small pup rat. In 2005, every snake took a rat, except for one. By it's third meal, I had it eating rats. In 2006, I produced more snakes then 2005, and had three that would not take a rat pup. Again, by their third meal, I had them switched over. By feeding them mice, meal after meal, I think they imprint on a food source. And when we attempt to switch them over, they do not understand that rats are also a food source.
Some hold off feedings, until hunger makes them consider the options.
I just find it easy to just start with rats, and avoid the whole issue.
I know of certain hobbyists, that have adult animals, i.e. spiders, pastels, etc that to this day, eat only mice. They will not take a rat. Is this a bad thing? Proably not, but it is so much easier to get them started or switched over as hatchlings instead of yearlings or adults.
Good luck.
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

icywolf Dec 15, 2006 09:02 AM

unfortunately for me, the two that wont take rats were already started on mice from the people they came from. has anyone ever used the spray that they sell in stores, cant remember the name, it is supposed to make a rat smell like a mouse so that they will recognize them as a food source. although i have rubbed a mouse on a rat(that just sounds odd lol) trying to scent the rat but they still didnt take. im pretty fairly convinced that they enjoy watching me pull my hair out and yell at rats because they arent getting eaten.
-----
*Third Dimension Reptiles*~"a new dimension in exploration"

1.1 green iguanas
1.0 sudan plated lizard
1.0 bearded dragon
0.1 leopard gecko
1.1 golden geckos
1.1 green anoles
0.1 cuban knight anole
1.0 asian longtail grass lizard
0.0.2 gold treefrogs
0.0.1 leopard frog
1.1 normal ball pythons
1.0 het. albino ball python
0.1 gulf hammock ratsnake
0.1 eastern kingsnake
1.0 albino striped california kingsnake
0.1 hedgehog
2.3 rats
0.1 husky
55 gal. freshwater aquarium

icywolf Dec 15, 2006 02:09 PM

i actually have tried breeding mice... multiple times. i honestly think my problem was that my reptiles, and all of my animals, are in my bedroom(getting an apartment soon so then i will have a room just for them )so i had to have the mice in the same room. i think that my ambient temps from all of the heat lamps made the mice too warm to breed. they either didnt breed or ate each other. i walked in once to find my female eating the insides of the male... in only took me about two seconds to deal with her... and so ended my attempts to breed mice. after that i just got a pair of rats from a herp show and two years later they are still doing the job, except lately i havent gotten any litters for about two months... not sure why but thats another issue altogether. i have found another place to get live but it is just really out of the way so im just gonna keep trying to get them to take rats till then. i dont think i will EVER try mice again, they stink twice as much, always bite when i would try to move them and from what i have been told when they do have babies they tend to eat them at the slightest upset. with the rats, i can take the pups out right after they are born to count them and if needed co2 and freeze some. i can put them back and big mommy rat just continues like i never touched them. not to mention, rats are just cuter. the cuteness level makes it nicer to have them around lol.
-----
*Third Dimension Reptiles*~"a new dimension in exploration"

1.1 green iguanas
1.0 sudan plated lizard
1.0 bearded dragon
0.1 leopard gecko
1.1 golden geckos
1.1 green anoles
0.1 cuban knight anole
1.0 asian longtail grass lizard
0.0.2 gold treefrogs
0.0.1 leopard frog
1.1 normal ball pythons
1.0 het. albino ball python
0.1 gulf hammock ratsnake
0.1 eastern kingsnake
1.0 albino striped california kingsnake
0.1 hedgehog
2.3 rats
0.1 husky
55 gal. freshwater aquarium

amarilrose Dec 15, 2006 03:55 PM

That's very true. That's also why I confessed to hating mice. Mice do eat each other and their offspring a lot more often than rats will. However, that doesn't mean that mice are difficult to breed.

My dad and I had a rather extensive collection of snakes while I was growing up, and we had an extensive rodent breeding colony to support the collection. We maintained about 12 breeding female rats, and 25 cages of mice that had 2 or 3 females to 1 male. We did not use professional breeder racks; we had the whole operation housed in the basement, which was quite large... but we went cheap on materials because our collection was a HOBBY, not a BUSINESS.

By "going cheap on materials" I do not mean we used inferior materials, just not pretty materials for housing. For mice, we took very heavy duty 5-gallon buckets, drilled a hole in the side for the water bottle to come through, and enough smaller holes to mount the bracket to hold the water bottle, and gravity feed chute of our own invention. Around the water spigot we also attached hardware cloth (wire mesh) to prevent the mice from chewing their way out (the round sides of the bucket helped with this too). The whole thing was covered with a sheet of hardware cloth, shaped to fit around the top of the bucket without posing too much of a snag hazard. This was held on with weights.

With this system, we only ever lost one mouse litter to a female eating it in about 8 years of breeding mice. We never lost a litter of rats this way. We housed our rats in lab-style rat cages.

In fact, we had to tailor this system a few times, because we actually over-produced mice and exceeded our own needs.

I wouldn't guess that heat would cause enough stress to prevent mice from breeding - but how hot are your thinking they got? More than likely, you had one freaked out female. Female mice are more likely to eat their first litter than any subsequent litters. Also, first-time mothers may feel that their safety and the safety of the litter is threatened by the presence of the male. This is even more true if the male that is present is not the male that sired the litter. That will even cause rats to eat a litter! (This behavior has been studied extensively in mice and in rats in both wild and domesticated situations)

So, don't just give up on breeding mice, if that is what your reptiles are eating. Mice stink awfully bad, but breeding your own is a helluva lot better than paying $1.30 per mouse (that's what I have to pay anyway). I personally do not breed any rodents right now just because my husband and I don't yet have a place to keep them that would not be in the house - and they stink!

Good luck!
~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

Amelia Dec 17, 2006 01:00 PM

I too am one who offers rats to all the babies that hatch out here before mice, mice for me on the babies are only a last resort. Breeding some of your own food works out quite well sometimes Especially allowing you to really pick your own sizes to feed.
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-Amelia
ES Tropicals

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