Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Forgive me for my ignorance, but can somebody tell me what the difference is between Sinoloan and Nelson's milksnakes? Much thanks in advance for any info provided.

Paul Gibson

There used to be a good article under the FAQ/Care sheet section here on this forum. Wish the poers that be would bring it back. I can't remember entirely what it said. I think you might have to get into scale counts. I do remember that he stated head shape between the two was different w/ Nelsoni having a more angular head as opposed to a Sinaloans rounded snout. Hopefully you'll get the other snakeheads on this forum w/ more milksnake experience than I have chiming in on this.

reako45

Paul,
In a nutshell the siniloans have a much lower red body ring count (10-16 average of 13) than there nelsoni kin.
Nelsoni have red body rings in the 13-18 range with a 16 average.There black bands are widowed out on the top as were the siniloans are pretty staright.
Red body rings are counted from the head to the vent.

Also,the first black ring that crosses the back of the head on a siniloan is complete across the bottom of the chin and sometimes forms a deep v shape.
Nelsoni's first black ring isn't complete across the bottom or if it does its very thin and straight.

problem in our hobby is that most all the siniloans and nelsoni have been crossed with each other and or came from a intergrade zone to begin with.

I myself have been looking for pure nelsoni for many many years.Look at this picture and its a classic true nelsoni.
Below it is a nice example of a pure siniloan.

Hope this helps.
Shannon Brown

Way too much poodle breeding out there.

Traditionaly, another key was that the red bands on a Nelsons equalled two times th esize of the black-white-black bands.

In Sinoloans it equalls three times.

Frank

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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Shannon,

I have what I believe to be are pure nelsoni. they are amel, and I hand picked them from Doug Moody's stock at his house back almost 10 years ago. He represented to me they were pure and I have no reason to believe he crossed his stock with sinaloans.

If you look at the picture of this male, you can see how the black bands (where they would be) are fanned out at the top like the picture you posted.

Let me know what you think or if you have any knowledge of Doug's stock.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

Yes,I believe that moody's amels were pure nelsoni.I wasn't aware that anybody had kept them pure.
Take a look under the chin and see if the first band is incomplete or complete but thin and straight.The rbr's fit perfect for full blown nelsoni.

Shannon

Yep, I checked them today. Both my male and my female do not have complete first black rings. They're not even close to being complete. I've made it a point to keep my nelsoni line pure.

Thanks for your insight.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

Another rare example of a "pure" nelsoni I acquired many years ago when they were virtually unknown to the hobby. I think it was from "Applegate" stock............no mistaking this guy for a Sinaloan !!(LOL)......Frank, you might remember this snake from years ago?

yes,thats what I am talking about.I havn't seen a normal nelsoni in many many years.

I have a theory that the nelsoni could be a actual intergarde (but of coarse after thousands upon thousands of years have became there own subspecies)between arcifera and siniloan.
They land right in between the two and show signs of both and they also intergrade with both.They have the higher band counts and the widows peaks on top (arch bearing) like the arcifera.

Hard to say but I would say its a relic intergrade of the two.

Shannon

Your theory as to nelsoni being relict intergrade could very well be. After all, snakes weren't just placed down on a plate here and there by a giant hand,....they evolve, and things shift around in time........your snake and mine both looked very similar, mine also had a very wide prominent split first black ring, which is one of the reasons I got it in the first place, because he was as "pure" as they came.................take care, Doug

Yeah I remember. Nice it was....

Frank

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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."