Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's Herbie earlier this year-

Herbie now...

and Herbie now...

and Herbie now...

and Herbie now. This is my first time using the leaf litter. It seems to be working out OK.

Thanks for looking-
Kakes

He looks awesome, the enclosures great, are you planning on moving him to a larger enclosure when he grows a bit?

I'm hoping he won't out grow it too soon. I've got up to four lights for basking(S to V), the "square" hollow log isn't too tight so he can grow into it, and the basking spot can be lowered easily by up to 5". Of course after a few weeks I will have to start a whole new cage.

Thanks-
Kakes

Just to let you know, if FR reads this, he is most likely to do what he does best... tear you a new one.

But anyways, he is cool and looks good!!

Thanks for worrying for me and thanks for the comments. I think I will be fine with whatever FR would like to say. I do what I can for my monitors and if he can point out something I can fix then I will.

Thanks again-
Kakes

Where did you get that? Don't quote people if you do not understand what they said.

I never said Waters will "tear you a new one"

Of course, they may or may not, like any other monitor. But I never said that.

What I say is, Salvators are not for beginers, and not very many people are able to properly care for them, anybody, not just beginers.

Of course, there are some who have the ability and work ethic to support a full grown water. Just very few.

I then quote numbers, tens of thousands are imported, and nearly all of them are gone(dead) by the next season. And Tens of thousands more are imported to meet the same fate.

If you all are so good at taking care of them. WHERE DO THEY ALL GO? Tens of thousands, tens of thousands, tens of thousands. I have posted on this forum for a long time, say ten years. Ten times tens of thousands. If you and I mean you, think about those numbers, you would be very sad or you should be very sad.

You should have some sympathy for all monitors, being killed, flushed down the toilet, smashed, dehydrated to death, starved to death, etc. But before you have this sympathy, you should have respect. Respect for what this animal IS.

Take this water, the one in this thread. It appears to be doing great, this keeper is doing a good job. But, its still a tiny monitor. The problem is not now. Its when it grows to giant proprotions. The problem is, doing a good job, causes them to reach giant proportions.

The problem is when its so big, it does not have room to exercise. It then gets fat, so fat. It becomes a giant blob(no longer a monitor) that cannot walk or run or do anything but sit there. Then because of this lack of activity, it dies from some stress related cause.

Also because of its inactivity, the keepers lose all interest and simply throw in a few rats a week and otherwise ignore it.

Yea, thats what I say, nothing about it will tear you a new one. I could only dream that some large water will exact revenge from all of its tortured brothers. Cheers

Good post. However, he said that 'you' would tear him a new one, not the water monitor.
See how right he was!!! hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha

You know Mike, its a darn good thing, I am not you. If I was and considering all the animals you have and my darn ability to cross things. I would make, Kinkydogs, or prairiechews. Or even giant crocachews with brooms for tails. They would tear you a new one and sweep it up afterwards. hahahahahahahahaha cheers

FR-
I think he meant you would tear me a new one and not the monitor.

Kakes

Thats even worse. No offense, but you cannot get a new one on the internet.

I do find it silly that people will attack someone and think its meaningful, as all the attacked has to do is click a button and its gone. What a easy defense. I get the feeling is someone dwells on being offended, they really want to be offended. U know, its all that behavior stuff. Cheers

Without exception, the only thing getting it taken to them is the monitors. They are without question, whom gets torn a new one. This is the sad part.

Newbies or really ignorant "other" keepers(whatever they think they are) somehow forget, the actual suffering is being done by the monitors. All attempted help here, however unpleasent, is only to help the monitors.

That context is missed by those who keep animals for odd reasons. Not for reasons of respect, learning or the like, but for self fullfillment(all about me, thing). You see, it is all about those people, thats why they never make it about monitors. Its about them and always about them.

Yes, I often contain two distint parts in my posts, one is helping the monitor, and the other is a slight jab at the keeper. If the keeper dwells on the jab, it tells me what their interest is. If they dwell on the monitor, I am very happy to help(if I can),Sad huh? Cheers

I fully understand your concern FR and agree with it 100% (your logic and your founded belief that MOST people do not understand just how big their baby will get).

I also agree with your assessment concerning LTC water monitors (or the lack thereof).

The only point I would like to add that you did not address is the fact that those monitors that are imported for the pet trade and zoos are only a very small fraction of the water monitors that are exported. Please do not quote me because it has been a while since i looked at the export numbers but IF I recall correctly, the live per year exported are around 20 or 30 k. The number of dead (skins for the leather industry) exported are somewhere in the neighborhood of 600k per year. I may be far off and someone will probably correct me with more exact numbers but the point is that even if a lot of the live monitors that are exported DO meet an early demise, at least they have a chance to provide a foundation for captive breeding stock. It is for this reason that I believe that people should be encouraged to keep and breed water monitors and not discouraged.

IF only 1% of those people who attempt the undertaking of keeping and hopefully breeding water monitors are successful, it is still 100% more successful than the monitors that are exported for the leather trade.

I believe FR does a good job describing the reality of keeping water monitors but unfortunately I imagine that those people he is talking about (teenagers wanting a big lizard to impress his friends, etc) are not the ones on this forum and perhaps many of the people who take the time to visit this forum may actually be good candidates to undertake this task provided they have the time, space, commitment and money to support the undertaking.

just a thought,
thanks, Don

Say your right, 20 or 30 thousand a year for the pet trade. Isn't that number multiples of ten. Tens means more then one multiple. So indeed the number you mentioned is tens of thousands. The higher tens of thousands can be attributed to Savs.

I feel no need to mention those skins dying in captivity(joke) get it? This is about numbers of animals dying in captivity. From lack of care, to be more specific. Those skins are already dead. Sadly most likely in a more humane way. Why is nicely killing something considered humane. Hmmmmmmm human!

Its also another and a different subject, concerning the impact of nature. Which would include both these areas and much much more. The actual destruction of habitat being of main concern of all the animals in those ecosystems. Again the problem here is concerning non thinking humans. Humans are constantly saving other humans. If you save lifes, you must include birth control. Consider, all these saved humans need a place to live and land to support themselves. Keep saving people without concern of over population, and there will be/is no place for animals/natural ecosystems. Cheers

P.S. you jumped all over me about this and that and stated you are going to be dominate around this forum, What happened?????

For the past few years the quotas for salvator alone was somewhere around 20,000 heads every year, we both know this has been going on forever (20-30 years) however these numbers are only a fraction of what they use to be in the early 90’s.

For the other Asian species the quotas are about 200-300 heads per specie, this is an improvement also.

As for the African monitors, forget it! they seem destined for mass murder.

I guess keepers will have to start thinking twice before obtaining the larger specie, it’s been to easy for to long.

I have a question? Given the choice I prefer raising a clutch of nil’s for skin and meat rather then seeing them die a slow neglected life in the hands of keepers. Is this a wrong choice?

I know this may look paradoxal, but keeping varanids is a personal decision, its not about conservation or saving a specie, if it was wed all be saving land and educating locals about biomass.

Remember this is just a question.

I think its a personal choice Jobi. Once when we were in the middle of our internet war, Jefe drove over from California. He got here and told me he saw hundreds of rabbits all thru the desert. He explained how he avoided all of them. Quite a task indeed. Then I looked at his car and said, But Jefe, your going to hell. He gave me a look, I then explained, St. Peter was a bug man, hahahahahahahahahahaha. His car was covered in dead bugs.

I breed mice for a attempted living, whats the difference? I would not choose to make a living breeding monitors for a living, but its only my choice.

I do think if Niles had value enough to breed them in captivity for skins and meat, then that would be a real tool for conservation. In order for animals to stay in exsistance, they must have value to man, or simply say bye bye to them. Cheers

Just a few words on why I think farming them is not possible.

In North America, the slaughter house and tanning industries, will take your bread and butter. They are fine tuned and control the leather industries in every way.

The price of wild skins makes this impossible even if the meat might be worth the trouble.

Then my proposition was to find feasible ways for these countries to farm monitors, of course this proved to be difficult as crops are very important and cant be use to breed rodents and such, trapping rodents, hoppers and fish could be possible and even beneficial.

The biggest problem is tanning, environmental contamination is a real problem, it makes farming animals for skin impossible in all these countries. At least I will not be part of this.

hello jobi, been a while. Thanks for the numbers.

in response to your question:
"Given the choice I prefer raising a clutch of nil’s for skin and meat rather then seeing them die a slow neglected life in the hands of keepers"
If this is the choice then perhaps, but the fact is that the skin/meat trade is not a perfect world either. Animals are not treated or killed humanely. If you look at our mouse breeders, most of them use proper uthanization techniques etc. In 3rd world countries these animals are thrown in pens or crates stacked to the top, tied and bound to stakes, etc. Walk the markets of Peru and see redfooted torts with sticks driven through the leg holes of the carapace and stacked upside down in piles as high tall as you and me. Many are still alive! Or walk the markets of Kalamatan and then you will see that there is nothing humane about it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that in many cases they are a sustainable resource and understand the realities of poverty. My only point is that I think we should encourage people and teach people instead of alienating those keepers who will make a personnal decision to keep these large monitors regardless of what others say. There is no sense in alienating them but instead should support them.

You are absolutely right, this is not about conservation or "saving a species". If we were worried about that we would do as FR says and worry about the loss of habitat, world pollution and global warming. What this should be about is trying to change the trend and increase the survivability of our captives by supporting those who want to make the attempt.

Look at all of the great things FR has done. I mean really, monitor care has for sure benefited from his "involvement" and research. NOW, what if way back when he was just starting to stir up an interest for these animals, someone discouraged him to such a degree, that he gave up his interest and pursued something entirely different. What a loss. ....I say the same thing applies to ALL new people. Remember, if properly nurtured, the newbie with the silly question on this forum today, could be the next FR of tommorrow.

Only a thought, thanks,
Don

You mentioned if I was discouraged. Hmmmmmmm I think the thing is, I could not be discourage, not by people. Its not like the established varaphiles at the time did not try, they constantly told me I could not do this and I could not do that.

The point is, People could not stop me. Because it was never about the people. I keep reptiles, because of me, and for no one else. Its a consideration, that my animal keeping started in the fifties when nobody liked reptiles. So I did not need varification of any type.

Maybe this is what gives me my attitude, If a few words can discourage anybody from keeping a living animal, then I think those few words should be said. Keeping living animals is not something to do on a whim.

But if I try to discourage someone, and they say, screw you, I going to try anyway, then those are the folks I like to help.

No, I don't think people should be sweet talked into keeping living animals. Remember, these are living breathing animals. I am not sure everybody should practice on them. Cheers

I deed research the skin and meat trade for a long time, in the early 80s I was working in a gator farm, that’s about 10 years after Frank worked with Bill Yeast in Florida?

I am sorry for not being the most supportive guy lately, I do realise how rude iv become and for this I apologise, these forums have little to do with my attitude as they reflect a small portion of the real problem.
I know a shop who still holds the same copy of Giant lizard sins it was released, once I ask the price thinking id get it cheep because its been on the shelf for ever, guess what? Not for sale, Steeve this book has sold so many water monitors thru the years and still to this day, why would I sell such a good advertisement?
He opens the book and there you see Robert Sprackland holding a 7 foot water, of course anytime someone walks inn wanting a big lizard the book works it magic.

Its little things like this that adds year after year that makes guys like me irritated, not the few and far between keepers willing to properly care for there lizards.

I could make a list of idiots who shouldn’t keep them, this list would be much longer then the list of potential good keepers.

Let me ask? A new keeper who wants to skip the preliminary and obtain a 6 footer for start, on witch list should I put him?
Or better yet the guy I just sold a pair of crocs calling me asking for Komodo next (true story), should I question myself about making a good decision about selling him the crocs?

Of course I know about Franks implications with monitors, seeing kids and grown kids posting again and so on just to irritate him make me even more angry and bitter.
People think I hate the man, I don’t blame them, especially those who witnessed out many fights on many forums, however I love this man and have always respected him throughout our games, in fact sometimes I miss the fun and entertainment.

But life goes on and other things need attention, hopefully keepers will get a little more implicated with there monitors.

I will try to be more indulgent.

Rgds

Jobi, aaaaah, rember that pic well. Just as if I looked at it yesterday but it has been years and years since I have seen it.

I guess we just look at it differently because for all the idiots that picture may have produced, I am sure that there are a handful of responsible and dedicated salvator keepers out there that the picture may have helped to "enlist" into the ranks. That would make it a good thing. It is then the responsibility of guys like you to sell responsibly and weed out the idiots.

I guess that is what FR is saying he is doing and understand his point thoroughly. I just think that it is a bit more difficult to do at this level rather than at the level where the monitor is actually sold to the idiot. As you know, there are lots of shady importers/dealers out there who could care less who they sell them to and this I guess is wherin the problem really lies. Trying to fix the problem through a forum such as this by giving discouragement may do more harm than good though. Then again, perhaps it is right on the money.

I have not really seen those kinds of people on this forum but I have not visited here much and am sure you guys have dealt with many of them and see where it can indeed be very frustrating. I remember the guy years ago who called me up wanting to trade his male african lion cub for a big anaconda because the cat was getting to big for him to handle and he wanted something new to impress his friends with. Just don't figure, huh.

Just my thoughts,
thanks,
Don

yes, I am sure my numbers are off, especially if we talk about all varanus species or even boids for that matter. My only point is that the quotas are given by cites and the countries of origin and are really not effected at the "user end". I agree with you that species such as water monitors are not for everyone but since we cannot control the quotas and they are always filled each year, then the least we can do is to encourage the "right" kind of people to purchase them and discourage people with poor intentions or the lack of means to keep such an animal. By doing that perhaps we can actually increase the numbers of LTC animals and cbb monitors produced each year which may in the long term affect the number of wc animals imported.

I believe you are doing that in your own way and agree with your intent 100%.

As far as birth control, I will not even go there but agree that habitat destruction is our real enemy but I could go on for days about that as I am sure you could also. I am also sure that it has been discussed in length on this and other forums previously.

PS i never made any sort of reference to "dominating" (or whatever verbage you used), this forum. I simply thought i would participate when time permitted. I have actually been in poor health lately and been busy with my herps. I have also been participating in some other forums that are more "user friendly". I also never hit on you FR, only responded directly to you. I do not want to bump heads with you. In fact I agreed with your opinion on this and just wanted to seek some feedback from you on a bit of a different spin of the subject so there was really no reason for you to throw that dig in at the end but i understand and am cool with it. I have actually been reading some of your responses and agree with a lot of your opinions. I was actually very pleasantly surprised to see your stand on hybrids. I was going to add to that link but feel you covered the subject very well and actually made several very good points that i had not even previously considered.

thanks for your input,
Don

hey nice monitor ..cant wait till my little one hits that size... ive notice those types of leaves in many picture of other WM owners. where do u get them from?do thye work really well?..

thank.khai

He's been in his cage about a week. So far everything seems fine. It took almost two weeks for my large BT to adjust to a new cage. It seems Herbie has already adjusted. If you ask me about the leaves in a few months, I might have a better answer about them. Right now they are still fresh and the real test is long term. I was lucky a local building had a huge Oak tree drop late this year. I happen to see them just driving by.

Thanks-
Kakes

so u pretty much you juss picked the leaves up and cleaned them off?
the leaves seem to work better then just dirt.
btw ur cage looks really nice.

That's basicly it, but no cleaning. Of course I look for leaves that are not nasty, but I did find a piece of paper towel today.

Thanks-
Kakes

Oak leaves work well, but any leaves would also be fine. Oak leaves last really long, that's why keepers like to use them. However, sometimes I also find that it's a good thing when other leaves break down quicker and start forming soil and stuff. It starts to form a substrate beneath the leaves. Also, I like to start with a layer of dirt or cypress mulch, then top that off with the leaves. Otherwise they can just be sliding around on the leaves with no real grip until the leaves start to break down or really compress beneath.

I have a good 6" of dirt underneath. It seems he swims through the leaves, but he doesn't seem to mind.

Kakes

The monitor and cage look really good. Good job.

Thanks-Kakes

What is that tube on the side for? It looks like there is a wire sticking out of it? Is that the electrical? Just wondering. Looks interesting

Sean

I'm not sure what you are seeing. There is a cord on the side for the heat pad, but you can't see it in the pictures. The cord on top for the basking lights you can't see in the pictures. So I guess you mean the two bulkheads in front?? These are the vents. There is a screen (cone) threaded on the inside of the cage. I can cap it off if I want. It keeps most bugs in the cage. A normal vent can be torn open by a large monitor. And I hope that Herbie won't want to push his nose into it like a flat vent. Also I try to put very few holes in the side of the cage because water can get to the bare wood and cause problems. The way a bulkhead is designed it protects the bare hole from water damage. (At least water from in the cage.)

Thanks-
Kakes

looks like a happy monitor!

love the aok leaves, been using them a long time for my monitors.

hey... where is the bext place to find those leaves... like do the commercially sell themm or did u picc them up off the floor outside and clean them..?
thanks

No need to clean them, ask John Adragna on cybersalvator he use to offer them to keepers unable to get some. Surly cheeper then commercial substrate.