Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Don't take this the wrong way, this is just an observation. But with all the excited talk about field herping and collecting interesting specimens, I have never ever read someone mention about returning to the wild, only taking.

Especially when there is an unusual mutation or color morph, that snake gets snatched like some rare diamond to be added to someone's collection, permanently eliminating that snake's genes from the wild population.

I'm not suggesting collecting should never be done, but that if we take, we understand the impact of our actions, and that may mean we also need to return, maybe return the babies.

Unless I misunderstand the discussions I've read, it is a disservice to natural evolution to only take and never return.
Actually this behavior has the same net effect as those God-awful rattlesnake roundups that make sane people cringe.

Maybe what is taken from the wild is just a small percent it doesn't make a difference. I don't know. But you have to admit that collecting is a popular hobby among posters and WC snakes make up a surprising number of snakes for sale.

Tom K.

For the record, I've never kept anything I've caught in the wild...

I'll remove it out of harms way(if applicable), photograph it, and head in another direction.

//Todd

It is illegal in many states to return animals to the wild. This includes animals that were wild caught, and their offspring. Animals can pick up parasites and diseases in captivity that can be transferred to wild populations. Possibly doing far, far more harm than good.

There is very little research on the survival rates of snakes released into the wild, or on the impact of collecting on wild populations. Habitat destruction is a much bigger factor than collecting.

For the record, I am against commercial collecting, but not against collecting a few animals for your personal collection. I wouldn't mind laws outlawing the sale of wild caught animals. If you are really concerned about populations of wild animals, the most effective thing you might be able to do is to fight for the preservation of their habitat. I'm personally involved in local groups that try to protect wild areas from commercial and residential development.

Greg

I think if you were to check field herping forums carefully you would find that only a small percent of the people collect anything except pics and out of those only a small percent of animals seen and photographed are taken.
There are commercial collectors out there for sure, but most would not bother to post on any of these type forums, I think.
To compare the field herper that gets out to photo and take records to a "rattlesnake roundup" is off base I think also.
Collection can and does make a difference but I'll leave it to the experts to debate just how much.
I am no expert by any stretch. I do field herp and I do occasionally collect an animal for my personal use.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I am all for conservation and I really believe captive breeding helps eliminate the need for field collection. The extensive habitat destruction and elimination is really the biggest threat to wild populations. I consider myself a pretty good snake hunter. Back in the day, I could pretty much go get whatever I felt like bringing home because I had my “spots”. Even I would say I couldn’t possibly wipe out an area by field collecting. I was never THAT good at it. I guess it would be possible, but I doubt it. I have a feeling most field caught you see were probably crossing a road or the result of some habitat destruction or encroaching development where the thing was an easy find. In some of those cases the thing was destined to become road kill or dead by some other means. I have no problem that those might end up in somebody’s collection and produce far more than if they were not collected. What I am against is stupid rules like the State of Florida not permitting the breeding of Indigo snakes. What kind of logic is it that if you can obtain a permit, which basically you can’t, you have to prevent them from breeding in captivity? That is the most #$%@& up thing I can think of, and that’s including a long list of things. What would be wrong with permitting responsible and successful breeders from producing more Indigo snakes to be reintroduced into our parks and remaining natural areas? Or supplying the pet trade to help eliminate poaching and pressure on naturally occurring populations? Thank you, to whom it may concern, that you have field collected a few, smuggled them out of Florida, and are producing them in quantity elsewhere, because it seems the proper authorities would prefer if they just die off right here.

Consider that in any given habitat only a certain number of organisms can be sustained to adulthood. A female snake only has to reproduce two babies during her entire lifetime that make it to reproduction in order for the population to remain stable. Excess beyond that either gets eaten, starves or expands the population. This is very simplistic but it is the first factor to consider when determining how any take will affect a population.
Regarding giving back to nature. That has the potential to cause damage by releasing animals that may be geneticly weak for long term survival in the wild and carrys the possibility of introducing forgein diseases to the wild. It is far better to study how much harvest can occur before collecting than it is to put captive animals back into the wild.
It's my opinion that all Lampropeltis except Todos Santos Island Kings can sustain some harvest. Others to watch carefully might include Goin's and Florida Mole Kings.
Many collecters actually do give back indirectly by captive producing far more animals than they ever take. I am talking about personal collection here not people who take every animal they can get their hands on. That's another story but for the most part the live pet trade is tiny compared to food and skin trade and the biggest detriment of all, habitat destruction. Slow reproducing animals such as Chuckwallas, many turtles, tortises and Indigos would be other exceptions.

As was stated before most if not all states have laws governing release of w.c. or c.b. animals back to the wild. I take the animals I want because I pay a fee to do so, but don't sell my w.c. animals, but plan on selling their progeny. I see so many animals splashed on the highways, that for most species, I see there are far more than we can ever imagine. I do realize that habitat destruction is the real danger, with road possibly pollution being a second leading killer, then roadway mortality, followed by commercial collecting. I don't think you could exterpate an area unless the animal in question was already in trouble. That being said, the laws governing said animals are really a farce, either not enough protection or none for ones that should have some. I am more than happy to contribute photos of my field herping, and suggest everyone do the same. The animals we have in our collections are great, and with all the morphs on the market, I just wanted to represent animals that are what they are, naturally. I now have a few morphs in my collection and they are great, but I want to produce animals that I know where they came from even if others believe it or not. I can only submit my photos from their capture as evidence. If I find a morph in the wild you can bet you're gonna hear about it!
Todd Hughes

"But you have to admit that collecting is a popular hobby among posters"

What gives you that idea?

"WC snakes make up a surprising number of snakes for sale."

Really, how do you know?

I think you only ever hear of taking because its more interesting to see the new genetics and morphs than oooh I found this normal eastern and then let it go yippy.

I think the others who posted covered the dangers of releasing captive snakes into the wild, as well as the unlawfulness in doing so. Capturing "unique" snakes for breeding projects probably doesn't alter the wild gene pool much. If someone caught an albino black kingsnake, it is doubtful that if left wild that snake would breed, create hets, and have those hets breed to create a wild population of albino black kings. The odds are simply against it.

Tim

Third Eye

> Don't take this the wrong way, this is just an observation. But
> with all the excited talk about field herping and collecting
> interesting specimens, I have never ever read someone mention
> about returning to the wild, only taking.

When a kinsnake eats a garter snake, how many garter snakes do they return to the wild?

> Especially when there is an unusual mutation or color morph,
> that snake gets snatched like some rare diamond to be added to
> someone's collection, permanently eliminating that snake's
> genes from the wild population.

No, its genes are not eliminated from the wild population. Every gene that snake has still exists in large numbers in the wild population.

btw, if it is a seldom expressed morph, the most likely reason is that the genes expressed to create the morph are detrimental to the survival of the animal, which is why natural selection has chosen to make its expression rare (IE the gene only survives in the gene pool if it is recessive).

> I'm not suggesting collecting should never be done, but that if
> we take, we understand the impact of our actions, and that may
> mean we also need to return, maybe return the babies.

The return of babies from adults that were not chosen by natural selection?

> Unless I misunderstand the discussions I've read, it is a
> disservice to natural evolution to only take and never return.

Not really. Habitat alteration is the real issue.
I suppose mass collection could have an impact.

> Actually this behavior has the same net effect as those
> God-awful rattlesnake roundups that make sane people cringe.

The roundups are mass collection, but nature seems to be even adapting there, as there *reportedly* is now a detectable population shift - more and more rattlesnakes are not buzzing when threatened. Reportedly.

> Maybe what is taken from the wild is just a small percent it
> doesn't make a difference. I don't know. But you have to admit
> that collecting is a popular hobby among posters and WC snakes
> make up a surprising number of snakes for sale.

Most states have bag limits on collecting to prevent over collection. Many states do not allow wild collected herps to be sold. I can never sell my wild collected California Kingsnakes, I can only sell their captive bred offspring (and then only under permit).
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3.3.5 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata