Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone working with patternless snows, I might be doing a trade for 1.2 adult patternless snows, I did a little searching on the Internet but could not find much, is there anyone here that can give me any help or information. I'd love to be able to see some pics if anyone has any. I'll most likely be on the forums most of the day, looking for info on breeding/keeping southern pine snakes. If anyone here has any good links that would help, it would be greatly appreciated.

Apparently these pines were produced by Mark Bell, I put his name through Google but not having any luck at the moment, anyone have a link?

I've been able to find snows, and I found patternless but not "patternless snows", the southern pine I was looking at last night was screaming white. From where I was looking I could not see any pattern on it at all, just pure white.

Are you sure you were not looking at Leucistics. I personally have never seen or heard of a patternless snow yet ,but maybe wrong. John

I asked if it was leucistic, I was told it was a patternless snow.

Has anyone ever seen a screaming White adoult leucistic pine before???

I would scroll back a page or two on this forum and read the 2 posts about Variants in Southern Pines. There's a lot of things that can easily be misunderstood and or mislabeled with the Southerns. I have seen screaming high white patternless Southerns....and each time I did they'd have a different name... So research these snakes before you commit, good luck
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Is this the thread?
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1195556,1195556

That is the second one, there's another before it, both have many replies all worth reading Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I have been saying for a long time that the "luecistics" are man made.They are just patternless snow pines.
I will dig up my old pics but I had a pair of patternless southern probably 14 years ago.They were almost solid white and they didn't have any snow in them?

Mark Bell does sell patternless snows.I have seen them.

Shannon

This call em as you see em stuff is ruining one of the only groups of snakes that have not been bred to the point where they're even 5% of the number as most other colubrids are bred. For those who missed my most recent Southern post...here it is...
I spoke to my friend Terry Vandeventer today and we got on the subject of Pines. It was kind of a shock for me to hear him mention what he believed to be a true Lucy which was wild caught. The person who found it was a guy by the name of Bob Fossey who apprently is still working with Reptiles today. Terry thought he saw the snake around 1969. So is this a missing link? Might there be another line other than Mark Bells? Are they one in the same? When I mentioned speculation that the Bell Line may be man made he seemed to share my thoughts that though they look like them...they're not truly Lucys[ that is IF they are indeed man made]and see if he can shed some light on the subject. Terry did mention his Lucy Cottonmouths are also a type of snake that are pink when they're born....but turn bright clean white. I will continue to post any info I come across Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Now since I posted this info which I felt was very much so worth posting... don't be surprised if some people start marketing Lucys as Mr Fosseys' stock. I know the majorty of people selling Lucys or Snows usually always mention Mark Bells stock,as if that means you should simply not question it. I have been a bit busy so I have had no time to further investigate the Southerns... but new topics along the same lines to discuss from the way I see it are
The many strains of San Diego Gopher morphs
The White Sided Hypo or Albino vs Snow and Ghost Bulls
The labeling of locale names into names of morphs to name a few
It's my opinion that what is really screwing things up is pet shops. They get in Pits and in many cases know nothing about them. They sell them to newbies and those people unknowingly misinform others by simply telling people about thier new snake. Names stick, people get confused and often people go with the what the majority of people call them be it correct or incorrect. It is not at all too late to get this straightened out. There's a lot to discuss though....I am ready when more people would like to voice opinions...though I will still talk about this even if I am talking to myself Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Yes,
I did read your post about your convo with Terry.Great stuff there but it doesn't prove or dis prove anything.
My thinking is still that the "luecistics" are not from a single collected animal and hetted (I don't know if thats a word LOL..) out or if a gravid female was collected ada yada yada.

I do know that the patternless has been around forever and that many mnay generations of breeding have come from them.

I just think its more of a selective breeding that resulted in the "luecistics" than a wild caught morph.

I could be totally wrong but I stand by it.
I have seen many lucy's and they vary allot.I wouldn't think they would vary much at all.Look at the lucy tx rats.They are stark white as hatchlings and stay that way???

Hard to say but they are cool none the less.

L8r Shannon

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Genesis 1:1

If you read my other rants on Southerns I already said what you said about the Bell Lucys being man made. I also spoke with someone who said he proved them to be by getting a varied clutch from breeding two Bells together. I also said I too believe the Snows are man made...which is why I call them variants and not morphs,... in other words I think they're a variant of Albino having nothing to do with Anery. The post I did about the true Lucy which I believe was wild caught...got a whopping two replies. So we are on the same page with all of this as far as I can see, it just stinks that not many others will even voice an opinion. This is why I am trying to figure out if the commonly seen Bell Lucys are all that's left out there. That to me...would mean there are NO Lucys period, since that Fossey snake was seen over 30 years ago who is to say some of the ones labeled as Patternless Snows are not Fosseys stock Lucys? Others will say if it is as a book describes the trait to be other than breeding true..it is still a Lucy. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

yes,yes and yes.I agree totally.

I wish somebody had the scoop on that w/c lucy for sure.

Shannon

on another note.I agree with you that it sticks when describing the looks of a snake by a morph name.I hate seeing adds like blizzard white snow hondurans.A blizzard would indicate that it had axanthic and albino in it.

There are many more also.

as far as the locale morph thing like the stillwater goes,as soon as you cross the stillwater with any other morph you loose the locality but its still god to use the term stillwater x ??? so the buyer will know what hypo gene was used since its NOT compatible with the generic line (trumbower)in the hobby.

Shannon

Yup, I have Creamsicle X Reverse Okeetees and that is how I label them. Not Creamsicle Okeetees. That is a specific morph that doesn not come instantly from mixing the two morphs. I think that the X annoys some people but I feel it is the best way to avoid a new name.
Don't you love it when someone says they've created thier own line by mixing two together? Remember the post for the Nectarine line Hondurans? HAHAHA! I read all your guess this snake posts on the Milk forum.........I never know what I am looking at but I think it's great a few people have a grasp of what is what. I bet it took a lot of effort to learn it all since to me they look so similar.
Pits are so under rated and so low in numbers that with some work we could get this all taken care of as far as the name game. I for one will be putting a lot of these descriptions of morphs and variants along with a few locales on my site and I bet a few of my friends will too. You gotta start somewhere. I especially think the point about not everything being compatible is so obviously important. Someone on a tight budget may purchase what they think is a great project only to be disappointed years later... Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

yep,people probably do get a bit annoyed by the x thing but it is what it is.

Speaking of nectarine albino hondurans how bout the sunrise or sunset or whatever name they are calling the intermediates.
It was so nice with three levels (tri-colored,peach phase or tangerine).

I think it speaks volume of you or anybody that will go to lengths to try and find out the strains and lines etc....
I do this with all my milks.Its almost sick sometimes when I think about it.

Shannon

>If you read my other rants on Southerns I already said what you said about the Bell Lucys being man made. I also spoke with someone who said he proved them to be by getting a varied clutch from breeding two Bells together. (snip)

Getting a varied clutch does not prove man made. Breeding two pastel ball pythons produces a varied clutch, and pastel is not man made. On the other hand, snow in corn snakes breeds true, and that is man made.

Getting a varied clutch does indicate that there is at least one dominant or codominant mutant involved, though.

>This is why I am trying to figure out if the commonly seen Bell Lucys are all that's left out there. That to me...would mean there are NO Lucys period, since that Fossey snake was seen over 30 years ago who is to say some of the ones labeled as Patternless Snows are not Fosseys stock Lucys? Others will say if it is as a book describes the trait to be other than breeding true..it is still a Lucy. Tom Stevens

Any idea where the Bell Lucys came from? Has anyone asked Bell? If Fossey is still around, it would be worth asking him what happened to his lucy.

If we say that leucistic in pine snakes must be a single recessive mutant gene, then I wouldn't call the Bell Lucy a leucistic either. What should we call it, and how do we persuade everyone to adopt the change? If I had an answer to that one, I'd use it to get everyone to stop calling charcoal corn snakes anery Bs.

Paul Hollander

A friend and I went to the Bells table this year at Daytona. I think he actually bought a Snow. We asked where are the Anerys that created the double hets? The answer was they had one, but sold it after they made double hets. They said they had no pics and knew not where it went. Now the Bells are extremely well know people in the biz and I can not recall anyone being angry over any transactions with the exception of one guy. I can tell you this though...if an average Joe told that "history" they'd be laughed off the forum.
The thing is, anoter reputable breeder has gorgeous pink and yellow Pines....I know some if not all[not sure] are patternless. I don't think it is wrong to wonder if they may have been ingredients to make the Bell Lucy. I was told they breed fairly true...but that another variant can also be in the clutch. Fossey is a common name so for now, my search came up with a ton of other people with that name. Since many folks are busy preparing for the holiday I will resume that search after the new year.
When I said the Bell Lucy was man made....I should have stated that i meant from breeding variants until a white [ or in many cases champagne pink] snake appeared and those are labeled Lucys. This is just a guess, but it seems others agree with me.
I also said on and off the forum that we also have to give Mr Bell the benefit of the doubt when it comes to when this snake was first produced. For all we know he may have told the first people who bought them that they did come from selective breeding. It's just my opinion that if it's genetics include anything but Leucistic...then it is not one in the truest sense like the Rat Snakes are.
This was a bit confusing from the first look into it all but the more I look the more confusing it gets. Many color variants of Patternless, the missing Anery, now Mr Fosseys line, Mark Bells Lucys...
I also agree that even if I got to the bottom of everything and had a site devoted solely too it on Kingsnake.com there will most likely be more people who just go by things as they were and pay little attention to the proven facts. However some of us would take it seriously, and some newbies seem to have also taken interest...so maybe there's hope?
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TomsSnakes.com

>A friend and I went to the Bells table this year at Daytona. I think he actually bought a Snow. (snip)

Since your friend has a snow, crossing it to a normal and mating the babies together should reextract the anery. It's not an overnight project, though.

That account of the anery's sale does not strike me as uncommon in the animal business. :

>It's just my opinion that if it's genetics include anything but Leucistic...then it is not one in the truest sense like the Rat Snakes are.

Agree with that.

A lot of projects are very informal. Which means that tracking down the origin can be pretty hard. And, in my opinion, there is a rather good chance the original breeder hadn't a clue to the genetics that he came up with. So I don't think we'll get to the bottom of the Bell leucistics until one or several people take it apart and work out the genetic formula.

Paul Hollander

I do know exactly what you are talking about since I see Mark Bell's table each year in Daytona and when I purchased my patterned snow southern pine shown here, he also had some patternless. He usually has some each year. They have the same colors as this one picture but just with no pattern. I prefer the patterned so that is why I purchased this one.

There are a lot of theories being thrown around at the moment as to whether the snow southerns are true snows or not, but to my knowledge, nothing is concrete yet as a final verdict. There is just not a lot of information out there.

If the deal is good and these are the patternless snows that are from Mark Bell, they are gorgeous and I am sure you will like them.

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Genesis 1:1

I didn't get to have as good of look at it as I would have liked to, maybe there was some pattern and I just didn't see it, it sure looked all white to me.

I just sent a email to the seller requesting some pics to post for you to see, I'll try and get some more info as to when and where the snake were purchased. (there in Toronto now) I forget exactly how much they were selling for $600-$800 I think.