Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The Pastel Sulfur male just shed, and so I decided to take a few pics. I am pleased with the way he is turning out. The snake in the pics with him is a Pastel Het Clown, and you can see the browning out taking place on his back. The Pastel Sulfur has limited browning out, and alot of lemon yellow.

The first pic is the Pastel Sulfur taken today.
The second pic is not a very good pic, but kind of cute, taken today.
The last pic shows the Pastel Sulfur compared to a Pastel Het Clown. These two males are both from the Bell line of Pastels.

your pastel sulfer looks like a normal pastel

your pastel het clown looks like a normal.........

Thats just crazy bro.......maybe the pics just suck but man....wanna sell me some normal females for $550 each???

Gary, I wish you lived close to me man The Pastel Het Clown is a Pastel, he has some nice color on his sides, but his back is browned out for the most part. The Pastel Sulfur is a nice snake. He kind of has a dirty look to him because he is so lemon yellow, with a few brown sprinkles on his back. They both came from a Bell line animal, which is why I made that a point. You expect a similar looking snake to come from the same line, the Het Clown came from a Clown x Bell line Pastel female, the Sulfur Pastel came from a Bell line Pastel male x Sulfur female. I am sure some people may produce stunning Pastels, but the Pastel Het Clown is about an average Pastel, and from the same line as the Sulfur Pastel. I guess maybe you have to see them in person. Come to Anahiem, I will show em to you in person. Here are a few more pics, Pastel and Pastel Sulfur. The Pastel in the first pic was a bit skinny, but he finally took off eating, and was sold at 140 grams and fat.

Dave

You really need a new camera man.. that might help your cause!

I DO need a new camera, I am just wondering if a new camera would actually help me, or am I just hopeless taking pics

bro i understand. I bred a pastel male to a nice female and i think the babies are something and that they look different. The point is as of now, they are NORMALS! They look better than yours and im not naming them "sulfur" or anything else i cant spell!

Show us some morphs! Not some this is a fire cause i think it is or naming some pastel that looks like any other.......

While I do not want to have this whole arguement again, and again, the first two pics are the EmberBall, one by himself, one with a normal. The last pic is a Sulfur Morph, with a normal.

Dave

I can make that same photo with a 50 lot of 2006 CH 2006 females....

whats your point!

The point, if there is one, would be that my two adult females have reproduced themselves, and have proven to be genetic. CH animals have not been proven right? You can pick out a few snakes out of a 50 lot, one might look like a Fire, one might look like a Vanilla, but until you reproduce the look, you have a CH wanna be. Send me an email, and I will shoot you over some pics that I have that have never been posted, and take a look at them. Here is the Sulfur Mojave...you cannot say that is not a nice snake, and they have been reproduced two years in a row, an 05 male bred to a normal produced Sulfurs, Sulfur Mojaves and normals.

Gary, Bro, where did you go? Nothing else to ad?

Dave

I gotta agree with Gary on this one. You should prove a morph before you name it. You can't tell if you have a new morph if you don't consistently reproduce the said morph. If you got an ember ball, then so do I. Here she is.

By "prove a morph," what exactly do you mean, and what do you want proven?

Dave

I mean consistently reproduce the same morph through line breeding. How many "sulfur pastels" have you produced? One, and that's just because that pastel looks different from your other pastel? The "sulfur" looks like a normal pastel. The pastel het clown looks like a pastel, I'll give you that, but the sulfur looks like a run-of-the-mill pastel. I can get 10 pics of ten pastels that all look completely different, doesn't mean I should start renaming them. I am not saying you don't have something, I'm just trying to say don't jump to conclusions and name your oddballs too soon. -Joe

I have not jumped to any conclusions, maybe you should look in the mirror. Here is the Pastel Sulfur Clutch, three Pastel Sulfurs, the two Sulfur morphs are the far right and far left snakes, and a normal up top. In the middle pic, from left to right, normal, Pastel Sulfur, and Sulfur, all siblings. The same morph, the Sulfur, was also reproduced in 06 from a Mojave Sulfur x normal. In 05, we got good odds, and got Mojave Sulfurs, but no acutal morph animal. We got the same morph animals in 06 in at least 3 clutches. What else can I do for you?

Dave

would put all this to rest lets face it if there is no super you really don't have much so hopfully this year right .
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Vince Pramuk

I disagree that without a Super, it is a worthless project. The Sulfur Mojave is amazing, just look at Eric's pictures. The Sulfur morph seems to act like the Vanilla morph, and lighten up whatever is crossed with it. Even if there is no Super, and I think there will be, the cross potential is still an attractive project.

That being said, the Ember is a nicer looking snake than the Sulfur, has produced a nicer Pastel cross, but no Mojave Ember as of yet. I think the Ember might be the nicer morph, there is an outside chance they are the same morph, but based on the two Pastel crosses, I think they will prove out to be two different morphs.

WOW.. Tough Room! What ever happend to " Nice snakes" ... I have to admit I am sorta new to the Ball forum so maybe this exchange is a product of bad blood... I hope so or maybe i am not ready for the Ball Python game???

Happy Holidays.. and oh yea, nice snakes!

Do not get scared away, the Ball game is FUN! People have their own ideas of when to name a new morph, when to call a snake a new morph, how to go about breeding it, do you need to make a Super or not, etc. Some people do not think I have done all that needs to be done to name a snake a new morph. Between you and me, the "naming" came about bacause I needed to be able to call it something other than "unproven snake that has a nice yellow color and a cool head pattern and clean and clear belly..." Basically, when people talked to me about them, in conversation and on the net, it was hard to keep the Sulfur and Ember straight, emails were 50 lines longer than they had to be because I kept having to differentiate between the two snakes...etc. There are other snakes, Vanilla and Thunder, and Yellow Belly and Goblin, that are the same morph, different lines, different names. I do not know what the BIG deal is, but hey, you cannot please everyone. All I know is none of my customers are on here bashing me, and that is all I care about. Most of it makes me laugh, feel to laugh too!

Dave

Before i say anything this is not a hit toward anyone on this forum just what we did with our projects. The Sables were only named Sables when a Super Was proven. The Sables use to be called dark hypermels, b/c for 4 years they proved co-dom. The animals were never marketed till the super was produced. In my opinion you need to breed and animla a min of 3 years, if in 3 years you have a super and a bunch of co-doms it is safe to say that it is genetic. Like i said the Sables have been around for over 4 years now, and they just came available to the public last year and were only named after proven a super making it a true new morph. I hope you hit on a Super, it will make it more so of a must have if it looks good. But i also have normal females that throw exceptional babies wether they are normal or pastels or any other morph, they have always hightened their offspring, but they are still normals,very pretty normals but not a new morph.
Good luck with your projects

I agree could not have been said any better.
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Vince Pramuk

Thank you for your kind words Vince
- Kim

Pinstripes- Haven't seen a super names been around for quite some time.

Spiders- Same thing

Mojaves-Named before a super was produced

Calicos- No super yet

Etc, etc, etc.

The sulfer is genetic. I hate to say it but I think the super will be a white snake, hope I'm wrong. Yes it's not a stunning morph all by itself, but the Sulfur Mojave is a nice snake. I produced 6 of them this year from the original sulfer mojave male bred to normals. Here's a pic of 2 of the sulfer mojaves and a normal mojave.
I agree that Dave post the same pics over and over, if you want to bash him for that fine. But the snake is a proven genetic morph and there's nothing wrong with naming it before the super is produced. In fact I can only think of a couple codom morphs that were named after a super was produced, fires being one of them.

Eric

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www.ESReptiles.com

wow those are some nice looking snakes. I think David just needs to take a community college photography class and he won't be bashed sooo much, lol. I have no problem with him naming the morph before the super is made, but I also understand where everyone else is comming from. This season should put the bashing about this morph and the ember to an end and that will be a tragic end to such wonderful threads (note sarcasm there). Best of luck with the projects eric and david, they are very nice.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Eric, do you have an 05 and 06 comparison pic of the Sulfur Mojaves? A pic with both in the same pic? I think the difference in just one year is amazing. I would take a pic of mine, but I do not think I should be posting anymore pics for awhile

Dave

I didnt realize that another breeder had reproduced them also, i was under the assumption that it was a one time occurance. Like you said the pics are not that great, but they show off alot nicer in Erics pics. I hope you hit on the super this year, i think it will open alot of disbeleivers eyes. If not try and get it into a yellowbelly, maybe youll hit on something similar to a super striper Good luck this year, they are nice looking animals.
Kim

First off, I do not agree that a snake has to produce a Super before it is a morph, or before it can be named. Take the Spider, still no Super, what if there is a Super, but it took 8 years to produce it? Do you suggest that no Spiders should have been marketed, no Spiders sold, because there has not been a Super produced? What if someone just wanted a Spider to produce a Bumble Bee? and did not care if there was a Super. If a snake reproduces itself, and makes a known morph different, I would say that is a morph.

I have never hidden the fact that the first Sulfurs were actually Sulfur Mojave's produced in a breeding loan with Eric. Eric was actually the first person to produce a Sulfur I believe, because in 05 we did not produce just the Morph, but 4 crosses. So in 05, we did not know what a baby morph would look like. In 06, I am pretty sure Eric produced the actual first Sulfur a few weeks before I did. He used an 05 Sulfur Mojave x normals, I used a Pastel x Original Sulfur female. We both produced normals, we both produced the actual Sulfur morph, he reproduced Sulfur Mojaves, I produced the first Sulfur Pastels.

I think one of the key reasons this thread, and the others, get to the point they get to, is way too many assumptions do get made. I think I am going to get a new camera for Christmas

First off, those sulfurs look like normals in a group of two pastels and a super pastel. Second, people said "nice snake" when he first posted his odd balls. After seeing the same thing for two years, every day, some people are waiting for a super as mentioned. I'm not saying he doesn't have anything, but I'm not buying those sulfurs, especially those last pics. They look like normals to me, mixed with pastels. Get some better pics or a super and I'll say "nice snake". -Joe

>>WOW.. Tough Room! What ever happend to " Nice snakes" ... I have to admit I am sorta new to the Ball forum so maybe this exchange is a product of bad blood... I hope so or maybe i am not ready for the Ball Python game???
>>
>>Happy Holidays.. and oh yea, nice snakes!
>>

Mike, having been on here for 5 years, I can tell you this isn't too common - but happens. It's a product of the environment - and happens just like any other forum. With so much scamming going on and sellers jacking up the price of a normal by giving it a name (Ember, not saying you are), people are reluctant to believe. In general, this is a good group. I hope you haven't been turned off.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

The funny thing is, the pics I posted today were taken today, new pics, just shed, thought he looked good. I am not selling anything, everyone keeps saying things like I post these pics and then put an ad up in the KS classifieds for $100k. I also feel it is offensive to put me in the same class as those selling CH or WC babies as a morph, when they did NO work trying to prove them out. The Sulfur has been reproduced from an F1 male, from the original female, and has produced the same animals consistantly, so doubting that it is genetic is a stretch. Sure, I wish I had produced a Super already, but we have not, hopefully this year. Not having a Super is not the end of the world, the crosses still look great. If you do not like my pics, do not look at my posts, simple???

one question and I'm not bashing you at all as I feel you have a very good couple of projects going on. If you have produced from an f1 male, why didn't you breed that male to the founding female and end all the bashing you get? Or did you and she didn't take or did you miss the odds or is there no super? I think you will hit a white snake as the super with the ember and not sure what you will hit with the sulfur, it could be interesting but hurry and hit it, lol.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I emailed you privately, but figured I better put it out here too The F1 male is not my male. The only two males I have are an F2 Mojave Sulfur male, from 06, and the 06 Pastel Sulfur male.

Dave

Dave, I have no knowledge of the genetic in either the Ember or the Sulfur, but I think it is great that you are proud of your animals. Its a free country so keep on posting your pics. I for one will keep on lookin. Photographic quality aside I think they look great and I am not knocking your photo skills either. As far as a super goes I wish NERD would finally produce that Super Spider so we can all put that one to rest LOL. And hey today is Thursday so I will expect to see those pics posted again by Satyrday, Sunday the latest.

Good luck and Happy Holidays,

Jeff

You bring class where ever you go!

Best of luck this year! Wish you the best!

>>You bring class where ever you go!
>>
>>Best of luck this year! Wish you the best!

U2

JAY
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

....

Jim who?

Dave

Another pic...

..same thread.......week after week after week.....

.........foot long space ......

.........nice.........really nice......wish I had 4 of them.......WOW!

.,anyways........see .I wasn't negative at all....

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and I am still waiting for that "magical" check......
mail isn't that slow.....come on man....write it out.....!50

I was wondering when you would chime in I was expecting you late last night. Very toned down, are you feeling ok?

Dave

yea....we know.......so is everything

...toned down.....damn I must be slippin'.....

LOL.........Life........same crap everyday.......

.....alarm goes off and we repeat ourselves.......

20 more years and I can change.......

...Evil-Satan says hell is fillin up.....good....I can stand on the others and climb out........

religion IS made up by people that don't want to work.......they became preachers/priests.............(yes Jesus Christ was real....)so?

........

and .......in the newspaper yesterday ....parthenogenisis in dragons.,...at zoos.....2.....yea......something else to argue about......(I vote for the kiddies coming out with the zookeepers' nose and bald head......).....

............take some pics of some west coast mushrooms and flowers and birds........cool stuff.......

........Merry Jungle Bells......
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and I am still waiting for that "magical" check......
mail isn't that slow.....come on man....write it out.....!50

I get what you guys are saying, because the pics suck and you can barely notice a difference in the animals. Dave, direct sunlight pics typically don't look great it messes with the colors and you get glare. Here are some good pics, completely unedited except for size, taken with a D100 in a photo tent using the on camera flash and the sun for lighting.

This is a codom/dom morph. If there's a super it should be produced this year. I'm not a big fan of the name, most the ones I produced this year have a peach color to them, that is more pronounced on the lower sides. As adults they look like a hypo with a toffee colored hue them.

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www.ESReptiles.com

Eric, those last two pics are NICE man. I really never knew your photography skills were that good. Is the tent deal new? It is a Nikon camera right, would a D80 and the same lense take nice pics?

Dave

much better pictures for sure easyer to see the differences.
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Vince Pramuk

Of my snake that looks an awful lot like yours.

ok, so you have a high gold Ball Python, so do 50% of the people who own Ball Pythons. The big question is, has your snake reproduced high gold offspring? Has your snake reproduced odd looking crosses? Can you breed your snake to a Mojave or a Pastel, a accurately describe what will be produced in a given breeding? Has your snake reproduced itself in two different collections? I am not going to guess at what your answers will be, because that is what starts these lengthy threads in the first place...people make assumtions, people think they can tell everything about a project from a picture...By the way, the answer to the above questions are yes, with my snake, making my snake alot different then yours.

this is for DAVE w these new morphs.....I do see the difference...and I wish you good luck with whatever comes of them....in the last pics posted..the first pic is a normal with...is that the sulfur? and then in the second pic is that the sulfur belly? I am EXTREMELY curious because I have a ball that looks EXACTLY like that one....i thought it was like a poss yellowbelly or something...but i chalk him up as "normal" until something comes of it. Can u send me ur email so I can send u some pics when i take them? not sure how to do any of that but ill figure it out. Thatd be sweet if he really was a codom or dom......but anyway he looks EXAXCTLY like yours...so im in a whole new world of excitement hahah. the bellys are identical....the back is identical...mine even has the connecting side pattern on the neck like yours does.....cant see to well in ur pic but mine has light grey-blue silverish eyes that have the cat eye slit.....does yours?

I will email you some pics.

I dont know what is so hard to see? Very nice and unique animal! Good luck with the project David..
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

What would help your "cause" is if you didn't bombard the forum every third day with the same pics. Every time someone posts a pic or two of their animals you step in and post the same three or four of yours.

We get the point, you have a light colored pastel and a light mojave.... the classifieds are filled with them... there are plenty of "morphs" out there that are genetic, but that means nothing to most hobbyists unless the morph is immediately recognizable for what it is... no one will mistake a piebald, spider or pinstripe for a normal.

I'm not saying your Concrete, Sulfur and other morphs are not genetic... but most people use the term "morph" for something that is striking and (generally) profoundly different from the norm. A slightly darker or lighter animal that reproduces itself isn't that impressing.

Maybe there should be an Ember/Sulfur forum where he could post as much as he wanted about them and anyone interested could visit it and the rest of us wouldn't have to see this same thing every week.

Haha! You guys are funny!

I agree with most here, as a consumer, unless something shockingly different is produced by the "morph" I'm not so interested.

Thanks...happy holidays!
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4.17 Normal ball pythons
1.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
1.1 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here!
*Amy*

Using your logic, would you consider the less than striking Yellow Belly a morph?

Dave

If so, feel free to email me, and we might be able to work something out so you can come see them in person. The Sulfur Pastel IS an amazing snake in person.

>>If so, feel free to email me, and we might be able to work something out so you can come see them in person. The Sulfur Pastel IS an amazing snake in person.

I do!

And I'm not actually a doubter OR a believer, just one of those on-the-fence folks. Impartiality and what-have-you.

For everyone involved in this, what sort of proof would they like? Just my unbaised eye, pictures (I might be able to arrange use of a digital camera), what? I for one wouldn't mind this getting put to rest.

Would this be an acceptable solution?

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"The problem with America is stupidity. Now, I'm not saying we use capital punishment, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Jenny, I am not looking for a resolution, or solution, but if someone who says they are just normals, wants to come by and check them out, they are welcome, especially if they have a really nice camera and can take some worthy pics.

If you are in the Temecula/Murietta area, feel free to email me, and you can come check them out if you like.

Dave

Dave I think you have something there w/ your "sulfer" project. I have seen the ones that Eric has. But man, come on. You keep posting/advertising the same snakes every couple weeks. I find it very annoying/entertaining and look forward to the high school bull that go's w/ this hobby. I look forward to your future post, lol.

Kyle

To be honest, I am a doubter...

Not because I don't believe that is may be genetic, but it is not something clearly visible to me sitting here in front of a computer looking at pics. It may be abberant, but....

I am beating a dead horse.

I would like to come and see it myself.

PM sent.
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www.HeathersHerps.com

-Ohh, what a Lady-

Balls for Life, Baby!

Heather?

You are the one, a doubter, you live close enough, and I know you have a good reputation, and will not come back in a week and steal my snakes You are hearby invited. I think you have a camera, feel free to bring it! I emailed you back too.

Dave

Bro i wish you the best, hope that fire proves out, hope its better than a white snake!!

No hard feelings here, kick ass this season and show us a super!

But, thats still a normal looking pastel and you proved a nice normal genetic! More than ive done so far! haha

Gary, I hatched out about 8 Pastels this year, all from the same father, plus the 3 Pastel Sulfurs, all 11 from the same Male Pastel. The Pastels from Pastel x normal and Pastel x Pastel all looked VERY similar, darker Pastels, kind of stonewashed looking, but not bright in color at all. I did not get a Super Pastel by the way, my Pastel x Pastel breeding was lame odds. Anyways, all the Pastels looked virtually the same except the Pastel x Sulfur ones. They were obviously different, and since they were all from the same male, my thinking was, they must be a Pastel Cross, since they were hatched from eggs from an already proven, odd, female. I have seen my fair share of Pastels, looked at ads, seen them in person, and this male I have IS something special. My pics might prevent you from seeing that, but he is amazing looking. I have a Pastel YB a few months older than the Pastel Sulfur, and there is NO comparison, I mean none, the Pastel Sulfur blows it away.

While I admit maybe I posted too many of the same pics, I think the reaction from some of the people went well beyond what is a normal reaction. And then the bandwagoners jumped on, and things went south in a hurry. As for the naming thing, Mojave cross just got too confusing. Someone would say send me a pic of the Mojave cross female, and I would send them a pic of the original female, THAT HAS NO MOJAVE in her, and it would just confuse people. That is why I named them, not because I thought I was special and should name every wierd snake I have, but without names, it was way too confusing. I think the mob mentality just takes over sometimes, and it gets worse and worse. I only have hard feelings towards one person, and he did not even post in this thread. He emailed me some F bomb emails awhile back, totally uncalled for, and when I set him straight on a few things, appoligized, but then emailed more F bombs from an Alias account. Since he has been the only one to email me negatively, I knew it was him again, called him on it, and he admitted it was him. That person I think is off his rocker, but oh well. All this venom for posting a few pics too often and about naming a snake, wow, no wonder people are bailing out of Balls by the dozens.

Bro the haters come out when you stick your head up! Ive learned that and thats why if i have anything you'll know it when i have something for sale.

Sure you take crap for posting the same pic but i have have one male that i want everyone to see too! If its genetic, great....if not then you prove everybody right....

Look at the Lori ball......looks like a normal black back! but, Lori said keep it, Brian listend and we get a super lori that is more than amazing! YA NEVER KNOW and thats why this ball game is sooo strong!

Honestly, I am also annoyed with the repetitive posting of the bad quality images by Dave, but he's a good guy and he's just showing off his stuff that he's proud of.

I think that's a sign of a good community member. The people who sit back and bash but dont post pics of their own stuff (which doesn't look as good) are the ones who aren't a good community member.

I think I'm much more annoyed with the useless repetitive counters you keep coming up with to simply try to annoy Dave.

(By the way, if you honestly can't see a difference from the pics Eric posted, you must be blind

Tiki