Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm curious about the legality of selling offspring from Georgia locale kingsnakes. Even if captive produced in another state wouldn't this be a violation of the Lacey Act since the founder animals came from a state that prohibits their collection? Thanks for any info, Ken.

If the original breeders were exported before Goergia protected them then the Lacey Act would not apply.

I'm not a lawyer, so take this as legally worthless opinion.

I believe the Lacey act only applies to direct decendents - so even if the Georgia locality Lgg were taken after protection, F2 generation stock would be legal to sell.

Secondly, I don't believe the Lacey act deals with the locality level. Since Lgg is not a protected species in the United States, I don't think its trade would fall under Lacey act, even if the parent stock were illegally obtained.

Georgia could however file charges against the individual who broke their laws in the collection of the adults, if they had evidence that they were wild collected after their law went into effect.
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3.3.5 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

The Lacey does apply to the f1s,f2s,f3s etc....They are and always will be considered property of the state they came from unless they were born prior then they would be grandfathered in.

Believe me on this one I know.
Shannon

how does one prove that

They don't care.If they want it to apply they will make it apply.They did it with the lucy western hogs to Brook and they did it with me on some taylori.
They can and will if its in there best intrest.Another feather in there cap is what it boils down too.

How does a hobbyist prove their cb babies ancestors predate protection or how does USF&W prove they don't?

I think the Lacey Act actually says that unless you can prove the animals are legal descendants they are assumed illegal. Personally I don't think that would hold up in court because it appears to be unconstitutional.

I don't think they have ever gone after anybody unless they have some sort of documentation or unless it is a very high profile species like Fiji Iguanas or Big Bend Geckos which apparently never entered the pet trade legally. I really don't think the USF&W would go after somebody outside of Georgia for Georgia Kings unless they had some sort of documentation, for example taped conversations or datable pictures showing collection of the original animals.

Now I could see them going after everything you had that was slightly questionable if you had just one animal they knew they could prove and charging you with a whole bunch of other stuff just to get you to plea out on the one animal.

Posted by: Aaron at Thu Dec 21 11:18:08 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Now I could see them going after everything you had that was slightly questionable if you had just one animal they knew they could prove and charging you with a whole bunch of other stuff just to get you to plea out on the one animal.

The sad reality is unless you have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on a lawyer you are at their mercy. Most just cut their losses and pay the piper.

F&G and other agencys have more leeway than regular police and LEO's. YOUR rights do not apply to their depts. For instance they can do a vehicle stop and search without a search warrant or probable cause.

Agreed. They know they can take you for a ride that will ruin your decade even if you eventually win.

I am a criminal defense attorney in Baltimore and these tactics sound like the Gestapo. We are talking about the Georgia Department of Fish and Game and not federal actions?
Mike Cooper

The vehicle stops and vehicle searches are questionable in my opinion but here is the reasoning they use, at least in CA. If you are driving slowly at night and appear to be looking for reptiles crossing the road CA Fish & Game will sometimes stop you. If you admit you are searching for reptiles they will ask for your fishing license as that is what is required to "persue" or "take" reptiles. Then they will sometimes ask to search your vehicle on the basis that your vehicle is a "container" and/or "hunting tool".

I would be interested to hear your opinions on the idea that a vehicle could be considered a container or hunting tool. As you may or may not know Fish and Game is allowed to search fish buckets and the like of fishermen without a warrant; at least that has always been my understanding.

Without looking at the Ca. statute, which may cause my response to be inaccurate, it would seem to me that a fourth amendmendant analysis of this "container/car search" is unconstitutional unless a driver gives consent to such a search. And even then such consent would have to be freely given without durress or coersion. Durress or coersion could be defined in many ways.

One way consent may be coerced is by extending the time period for the initial stop. Which means that if the purpose of the car stop was to give a citation for a traffic offense (driving too slow for the posted speed, and the officer then initiated another detention of the driver after concluding the purpose of the first detention (to give a citation or warning), then any further detention is illegal and acts as a pretext to induce/coerce the driver to consent to a search of his car. If ever asked for consent always say no. Of course I am not so naive to believe the officer will honor your refusal, but if ever taken to court your refusal to give consent is a defense to the search.

Again, an officer may claim when he approached the car writhing snakes were in plain view crawling throughout the back seat of the car thus giving him reasonable articulable suspicion to search the car without consent. Each fourth amendment analysis is very fact driven and is dependant on the individual circumstances of each case. The short answer to your question is that a "container/car search" without valid consent from the driver, or reasonable articulable suspicion that some crime is being perpetrated (illegal collection of reptiles)at the time of the stop (which means a volunteered "blurt", "we are collecting snakes, and have no liscense to do so"is a violation of the fourth amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

One caveat is that in certain "zones" such as border patrol areas your fourth amendment protections are lessened since the State's greater societal need as determined by the courts, is to protect our border areas. So a "container/car search" conducted within certain mileage of the Mexico border may be legal even if the search violates an individuals personal constitutional rights.
Mike Cooper

I do not know where that smiley face came from in my above post. Ghosts in the machine.

Thanks for your response. I have only been stopped by F&G once and my reply was "I will not consent to a search but I will not resist one." I had the required fishing license, he searched, found nothing and I was on my way in less than 30 minutes.

Thanks for your response. I have only been stopped by F&G once and my reply was "I will not consent to a search but I will not resist one." I had the required fishing license, he searched, found nothing and I was on my way in less than 30 minutes.

Right after it gets completely dark F&G pulls you over and detains you. That particular time is the best time to see snakes crossing the road.

Us herpers travel hundreds and sometimes THOUSANDS of miles to herp a particular spot at night. Being stopped during "prime time" movement of the snakes crossing the road and detained for 30 minutes (or more) AFTER showing a fishing permit kinda ruins the point of even going.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-23-reptile-poaching_x.htm

WHITE WATER CANYON -- The driver of the SUV slammed on his brakes after his
high beams caught a large orange and red lizard in the middle of the road.
The "lizard" turned out to be a plastic decoy set by state Department of
Fish and Game warden Kyle Chang to lure illegal reptile rustlers. Chang
questioned the driver, Robert Sobolewski, who, it turned out, had a license
to hunt for such animals as the baby sidewinder sitting in a glass container
on the back seat.

It was the first of several stops that Chang, one of the few wardens in the
state assigned to reptile enforcement, made during a crackdown on poachers
in this 3-mile-long desert wash framed by towering sandstone cliffs about
120 miles east of Los Angeles.

In the world of reptile hunting, White Water Canyon is regarded as an oasis.
Spanning several transition zones, including sandy desert, boulder fields,
grasslands and forests, it teems with a variety of snakes and lizards that
tend to congregate on its narrow two-lane road at night.

That makes them easy pickings for collectors who cruise for hours in hopes
of bagging snakes such as the spotted leaf-nosed, the glossy, the Western
shovel-nosed, the Western Blind, the Lyre, the king snake, the gopher, the
rattlesnake and the Western banded gecko.

Of particular interest to connoisseurs are so-called "White Water rosy boa
constrictors," which are prized because of their docile nature and vibrant
orange and pink hues.

Keeping the canyon's wildlife safe from irresponsible collectors would
require a level of security that at this point is elusive, given the state
budget crisis. But by their occasional presence, Chang and the decoy he
calls Bubba have become deterrents against those who would exploit wild
reptiles for personal gain.

Setting the plastic back on the road, Chang said, "Maybe we can save a
reptile or two tonight."

Then he got back into his green truck crammed with radios, shotguns and
survival gear, and drove behind a hedge of creosote bushes. Hidden from
view, he switched off the ignition, turned off the lights and waited.
The man and his decoy are an unlikely duo. Chang, 32, is a husky officer
with an easy smile who never grew out of his boyhood love of snakes, frogs,
toads and salamanders. Usually, his work days are spent enforcing hunting
and fishing regulations in and around the Hemet area.

Bubba is his nephew's toy. "I just slapped some paint on it to make it look
sort of like a banded gecko," he said with a laugh. "Works every time."
A few minutes later, a truck exited Interstate 10 about a mile away, and
then headed toward this Coachella Valley canyon sandwiched between Mount San
Jacinto on the south and the San Bernardino Mountains on the north.

The truck slowed to a crawl and flipped on its bright lights. No sooner had
it screeched to a halt on a decoy down the road -- this one a small rubber
snake -- than the warden fired up his truck and roared up to the scene with
law enforcement lights flashing.

"Got licenses?" Chang asked.

State law allows certain reptiles to be taken from the wild but they may not
be sold, and each has a bag limit, the same as fish. In fact, a freshwater
fishing license is required.

The problem for authorities is trying to distinguish wild snakes or lizards
from captive-bred ones. State fish and game authorities suspect that many
wild reptiles are laundered through legitimate breeders or dealers before
being sold to collectors, or shipped out of state.

Three months ago, Chang cited a White Water collector who failed to mention
that he had 10 desert night lizards inside an ice-chest. In a separate case
earlier this year, Chang confiscated a wild gopher snake from a Rancho
Cucamonga pet shop.

Once taken out of their habitat, snakes and lizards cannot be released back
into the wilds since they may have picked up infectious diseases. For that
reason, Chang donates the animals he seizes to local zoos and colleges.
The 10 desert night lizards will be given to Glenn Stewart, a professor of
zoology at Cal Poly Pomona, and a strong supporter of Chang's work in the
field.

I've been concerned about over-collecting for a long time because it really
can deplete populations, Stewart said.

Chang could not agree more. Nonetheless, as someone who still gets a kick
out of crossing paths with a snake in the wild, he usually lets people off
with only a verbal warning.

It was after midnight when Chang ended his stakeout, tossed Bubba into the
truck and headed home. The fact that none of the half dozen people he
encountered had been arrested, or even cited, did not seem to bother him in
the least.

I'm fighting the 10 out of 100 people who take everything they find on the
road, from snakes to scorpions, he said. Beyond that, this is one of the
most fun patrols I do.>

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Game warden Kyle Chang waits as Mathew Bartol, 22, goes into the back of the SUV to show him his snake catch for one May evening at Whitewater Canyon in California.

By Ramon Mena Owens, Palm Springs Desert Sun for USA TODAY

Poachers squeeze the fun out of snake collecting
Posted 8/23/2006 11:35 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this

Enlarge By Ramon Mena Owens, Palm Springs Desert Sun for USA TODAY

Snake collector Mathew Bartol of Valencia, Calif., holds an elusive rosy boa that he captured near Whitewater Canyon.

By Benjamin Spillman, USA TODAY
PALM SPRINGS, Calif. — When the sun sets on Southern California's Whitewater Canyon, it comes alive with snakes, frogs and lizards out to enjoy the warm desert air. It also comes alive with reptile enthusiasts and poachers.
The enthusiasts obey the law and troll for pets; the poachers ignore the law and snatch up slithering creatures to sell on the global market for wildlife. There's a license for the enthusiasts; there's not one for the poachers. The former would watch Snakes on a Plane with fascination; the latter with dollar signs in their eyes.

PROTECTING PETS : States move to shield animals 'used as pawns' in domestic abuse cases

The canyon and countless ponds, streams and prairies on public lands across the USA are the front lines of a cat-and-mouse game between reptile poachers and the people who watch over protected wildlife.

"Some nights are busy, some nights you don't see anything," said Kyle Chang, a game warden for the California Department of Fish and Game, who quietly stakes out the Whitewater Canyon several times a year.

On a busy night, Chang might make 10 stops, most to verify collectors are carrying a state fishing license, a prerequisite for catching reptiles such as the Whitewater rosy boa, a docile snake that makes a good pet.

Chang uses a rope taped to resemble a California king snake as a decoy. When somebody stops for the fake snake, he pulls up and checks for a license, bag limit or other violations.

While legitimate collectors — sometimes called "herpers" — don't cause problems, unlicensed poachers gathering for commercial gain can decimate an area.

Poachers flock to places such as Whitewater and Borrego canyons and Joshua Tree National Park in California and plentiful hunting grounds in Arizona, South Carolina, West Texas and countless spots in between. "It is definitely a problem," said Jeff Lovich, deputy director of the U.S. Geological Survey's Southwest Biological Science Center in Arizona.

Chang says California fines can be as low as $10 for people who forgot their license at home to $385 or more for blatant poaching offenses.

In nearby Joshua Tree National Park, federal penalties for pilfering wildlife can include jail time and fines up to $250,000, depending on the types and quantity of reptiles taken. Joe Zarki, a park spokesman, said penalties vary depending on whether the offender is part of a commercial ring or simply a child catching a lizard for a pet.

Rangers at Joshua Tree National Park say it's tough to quantify how much poaching occurs. That's because it's not enough to catch poachers with the tools of the trade — snake hooks, pillowcases, cages, Zarki said. "One of the problems is you have to actually catch people with the reptiles in hand," he said.

Lovich said Gila monsters are popular poaching targets. Named after the Gila River Basin in Arizona, they are one of two kinds of poisonous lizards. Those bred in captivity can be traded legally, but a price tag that can exceed $1,500 on the open market makes wild Gila monsters, which are a protected species, attractive to poachers.

Venomous snakes, and their non-poisonous cousins, are popular, too. The rosy boa sells on the Internet for $100 to $300.

"There is ... a bit of a thrill for people because there is a great deal of phobia among the general population," said Jack Crayon, a biologist and former herper (from the Greek word for reptile) who lives in Indio, Calif. "There is some satisfaction in handling something a lot of people are afraid of."

Chang says poachers occasionally will go to great lengths to snatch wildlife. He described finding people in Whitewater Canyon with frogs, toads and lizards stuffed into jars and snakes loose on the floorboard.

To sell native California reptiles within California, sellers need to produce documentation the reptiles were bred in captivity, not caught in the wild, Crayon said. California reptiles, however, can crop up without documentation in other states, and Lovich said he has encountered people offering wild-caught reptiles for sale.

Legal commercial operations, such as turtle farms in the southeastern United States, can lead to poaching, said Allen Salzberg, the New York-based publisher of Herp Digest.

"There is constant pressure for wild-caught males and females to bring into these farms," he said.

For some people, though, collecting reptiles isn't about money or thrill.

"They are so fun," said Mathew Bartol, 22, of Valencia, Calif., as he handled an 18-inch rosy boa he picked up on Whitewater Canyon Road. "What makes it so fun is the search."

Bartol, who had a license and could legally catch the boa, chatted with Chang and two other collectors. They talked about the weather and collecting conditions.

Chang said Bartol, who was collecting with his dad and a family friend, is more representative of snake-enthusiasts than poachers.

"Some people like fishing over hunting. Some people like reptile collecting over fishing," Chang said. "Like any sport you have good people, bad people and people who walk the line."

By your reprints of articles recounting officer Chang's exploits and his stated intent to protect finite reptile populations, he seems to be a protector and champion of reptiles. This is commendable. However, as an attorney I see many problems with his tactics when filtered through a fourth amendment analysis. If I had a client in such a predicament I do see a legal defense, but no conscientious person condones poachers. Fortunately I have not had the quandry presented to me as to whether I would represent a poacher.

And in truth, even though the means may be unconstitutional by which officer Chang stops and searches cars, I am not without sympathy for his efforts. As proof I cheer all those law breaking tree sitters who reside in the tops of old growth forrests to prevent the rape of our lands just so we can get so many board feet of timber for another McMansion that sits atop some once serene habitat of some herp be it a rare species or a common toad.

Just insist on your constitutional rights be they trampled or not. Remember it is called an exercise of rights. Never used they atrophy and wither away.

And in truth, even though the means may be unconstitutional by which officer Chang stops and searches cars, I am not without sympathy for his efforts. As proof I cheer all those law breaking tree sitters who reside in the tops of old growth forrests to prevent the rape of our lands just so we can get so many board feet of timber for another McMansion that sits atop some once serene habitat of some herp be it a rare species or a common toad.

Habitat destruction is the culprit and not collectors. Besides in todays market, commecial collectors are a thing of the past.

A good example here is whitewater road. This road has been heavily collected for the last 5 decades. I remember in the 70's and 80's when at least 5 cars were driving up and down the 3 mile road during the spring and summer months. Then in the 90's it became a destination for out of state visiting herpers and kids, families ect. The place is a zoo on a spring night when temps reach 90 during the day.

Point is there is no decline in species due to what seems like over collection and nobody knows this better than Mr. Chang..

People are still pulling snakes off that single road for over 40 years. You can still find rosys, king, shovelnose, longnose, lyre snakes, tons of banded geckos and glossy snakes along with night snakes and rattlesnakes. If this was a road for travel through the mountains all these animals would be run over and killed. And there are roads that lead through habitat all over the place.

I have a strong distaste for Mr. Changs efforts . F&G should stick with hunting game, fishing and protecting small pockets of endangered species.

Shannon is 100% correct as to what they can do if they choose. The burden of proof falls on you to prove the animals are of legal origin. Good luck with that. Anyone advertising thier animals as Georgia stock might as well be selling Big Bend NP alternas. It hasn't been pursued yet, but they could at any time decide that it's a priority and everyone who has posted GA animals could get a visit. On certain occasions people with Hyde Co. Red Pygmys have been charged while others sell them with impunity. There's certainly some legal animals out there (both GA getula & Hyde Co. Pygs) but do most people have thier paperwork? After dealing with the powers that be, you will from then on....believe me. So far it hasn't mattered but that is subject to change at any time. You would be amazed at what methods & powers F&G can use, none of the regulatory agencies that police normal Law Enforcement do so with Wildlife agencies. And like Bluerosy said, you may in fact be 100% in the right but it can still destroy you to have to spend $10,000 and up to "prove" you are.

Horridus

Really scary stuff but the sad part is that the effect to the same reptiles would not even be addressed if someone wanted to bulldoze critical habitat to put in another WallMart!

I believe Big Bend alterna are a little different. If I am not mistaked they were protected long before anybody collected them or at least circulated them to the general public. I believe there was probably several hundred to several thousand Georgia Kings taken legally before they were protected. But yah, you can't avoid the ride if they want to give you one.

I am fairly certain the blanket protection took place in this state in 1977-1978 so I seriously doubt there are many people out there that can verify thier lines (with paperwork) as to being pre-78 specimens....although I could be wrong? And even then, what do you have? Records you collected the animal? Photographs on dated newspaper of the WC and all of the hatchlings they produced? Good enough photos that slight variations in pattern could leave no doubt that these animals are in fact the ones you say they are. I may be in the minority here, but I believe that they can do whatever they want to. If they (F&G) want to take you down for whatever reason (real or imagined) you will go down or you will spend many many many thousands of dollars to fight it. It's been proven time and time again....California, Texas, Arizona, and right here at the "Atlanta Wildlife Exchange".....do you think the tactics used in that "operation" would have held water if it had been regular law enforcement? But I could just be paranoid

Horridus

It has not always gone the way of Fish and Game in California.
That myth needs to be busted so that people stop settling out of fear.

In fact, in one case, the state had to pay the breeder a ton of money because his stock died in their care, and it was determined he was NOT in violation of the law.
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3.3.5 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

That's not my definition of "winning".
All those irreplaceable animals were still dead!
Karl

lol couldn't resist that bart.sounds like a keeper would have a real uphill battle onhand.i also really liked tony d.'s point about all this in light of retail development.....not that i know georgia's herp laws from front to back,but what i do know about them,they are atrocious;laughable even(see native simus rofl below)

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Are you sure about that?
I know violation can result in jail time (extreme), which would make it criminal law - which is always innocent until proven guilty.
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3.3.5 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Just like the ACR, American Corn Snake Registry. Maybe this way it would be easier to fight them. I must say that their tactics leave a lot to be desired. I am a law enforcement officer and would be ashamed to say if I had any envolvement in what they do to honest people who enjoy a very legit hobby. What needs to be addressed is wether or not the powers to be in GA have any connections to or sympathies with PETA. Does PETA contribute to certain campaign funds etc....may be just another conspiracy theory but you never know!!

Until there is a commercial value to such a registry, most breeders won't do it.

That and the data is too easily faked for it to be of much use in determining the true origin of a specimen.
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3.3.5 L. getula californiae
1.0 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.1.2 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

By the way I have 25 snakes and have been a long time herper in case anyone thought I was just some atty. trolling around.
Mike Cooper

>>By the way I have 25 snakes and have been a long time herper in case anyone thought I was just some atty. trolling around.
>>Mike Cooper

glad to see you here.

daveb

hello