Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know I should have come here a long time ago but i have been reading old posts of what might help my female western hognose.
I acquired her from a teacher about three months ago, he even admitted he wasnt caring for this baby snake properly.
She is supposed to be about 8 months old, but doesnt look more than about three months old!
She has only eaten once in my care, in the first week or two of me having her, but I havent gotten her to eat since!
I have tried turning up the heat, keeping her separate from my adult male (which I know probably sounds odd, but they CUDDLE! best of buds, I swear I had never seen snakes act like that before, and I am no newbie!) I've tried force-feeding, which I can get only part-way down her throat and she will bring it back up.
I have tried mouse scent added to a pinkie, frog scent, and even tried giving her earth worms, unfortunately I cant find any frogs or toads.
Any advice would be helpful, she has recently started to look emaciated, which makes me think she is heading past help.
HELP!

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Jess
1.1 adult brazilian rainbows
1.2 baby BRBs born 6/18
1.0 normal corn
1.0 african brown house snake
0.1 hypo Boa constrictor
0.1 normal ball python
1.1 crested geckos
1.1 western hognoses
0.0.1 unhatched crested gecko egg
Oodles of mice and rats
1.1.2 teddy bear hamsters
0.1 paranoid parents "too many snakes snakes!"

I am not an expert, but if it was my snake, this is what I'd do. Force feed again using a small pink, or even a pink head, lubricated with water, at a temp of 100F. (the pink) You can try holding the pink right at the snake's nose. If you are lucky, the snake will just open her mouth for you. Pop the mouse in, and push it back as far as you can without hurting her. On my snake, I can usually see half the mouse. Then hold her mouth shut and massage her throat so the mouse moves toward her stomach, until it is so far down she can't get it back up. I would do this at a four-five day interval, and track her weight weekly.

Keep her away from the adult from now on. She needs her own viv. Snakes do not like each other, or cuddle, or need companionship. If you see two together, it is because they have both determined that that particular spot is optimal, and neither one wants to give it up. Cohabitating stresses the snake.

I would also stop handling her entirely except for feeds.

Nanci
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*****
0.0.1 Normal Corn, 0.0.1 Cali King 0.1 Nelson's Milk
0.1 Tricolor Hog, 0.0.1 Eastern Hog, 1.0 Eastern Box Turtle
0.0.2 Desert Torts, 2.0 Feral Pigeons

http://www.hognose.co.uk/13.html

This shows how to hold the pink by her nose. This works about 50% of the time to make my Eastern open her mouth. (Mine would never continue on and swallow, though- I have to get it all the way into her esophagus.)

Nanci
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*****
0.0.1 Normal Corn, 0.0.1 Cali King 0.1 Nelson's Milk
0.1 Tricolor Hog, 0.0.1 Eastern Hog, 1.0 Eastern Box Turtle
0.0.2 Desert Torts, 2.0 Feral Pigeons

I am not trying to be rude, but your post was no help, and i found it somewhat demeaning, instead of offering help, you sounded critical.
I already said that I had tried force feeding, several times. The snake is no longer with my adult male, which is also stated in my post.
I need OTHER options, if there are none, I will not stop trying to force feed her and hope she will catch on.
Please, I need help, not criticism.
Thank you
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Jess
1.1 adult brazilian rainbows
1.2 baby BRBs born 6/18
1.0 normal corn
1.0 african brown house snake
0.1 hypo Boa constrictor
0.1 normal ball python
1.1 crested geckos
1.1 western hognoses
0.0.1 unhatched crested gecko egg
Oodles of mice and rats
1.1.2 teddy bear hamsters
0.1 paranoid parents "too many snakes snakes!"

Dillybird is not being critical, she's being helpful. She said "I am not an expert, but if it was my snake, this is what I'd do." Afterward she mentioned a specific way of force feeding as well... so if you're already force feeding your snake that way then she basically said, "If I were you, I'd keep up the good work!"

As for the end about cohabitation stressing snakes. It's just a fact, nothing personal. Dillybird never said you were a stupid person for putting them together, just that that could be one reason your snake won't eat. That is something else you could do besides force feeding and the other things you mentioned, that might help your snake to eat again.

You also never said how you go about force feeding, so her advice on how to force feed, could very well help you.... That is, if you weren't so sensitive about recieving advice.

Since you have stated that your snake was not well-cared for before, and has only fed once in three months, and is starting to look emaciated- it is my opinion that you don't have time to go through all the various scenting methods, even at four day intervals, before your snake starves. I have an Eastern that I tried _everything_ on, and after she lost 25% of her body weight, I started assist-feeding her. She is on her fifth feeding, at five day intervals, and has regained half the weight she lost. And she was a 24 gram snake to start with, not a tiny baby. Once they get too weak, I don't think they have the will to eat.

This is the list of everything that my snake refused before I resorted to assisted feeding:

Washed
Washed/blow dried
Brained
Toad-scented
Toad urine-scented
Toad guts-scented
Anole live
Anole-scented
Tree Frog live
Tree Frog-scented
Chicken Broth-scented
Tuna Water-scented
Live pink
Rotten pink
Trying to induce a strike by touching the snake's body with the pink

I did not try:

Gecko-scented
Anole shed-scented
Live Toad

Good luck,

Nanci
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*****
0.0.1 Normal Corn, 0.0.1 Cali King 0.1 Nelson's Milk
0.1 Tricolor Hog, 0.0.1 Eastern Hog, 1.0 Eastern Box Turtle
0.0.2 Desert Torts, 2.0 Feral Pigeons

Sounds like you just got some solid info stop complaining. Go to the vet get him checked out wile your are there get a syringe and a catheter scramble an egg and inject it down her throat I have kept my albino male alive for 2.5 years on egg. He fed for the dealer sporadically 3 times. Two weeks ago he ate a large pink. He is 8 in. long but at least he is alive.

1.0 cb speckled mad hog
15.25 Western hog (reds, sulpher, green, albino, normal)
4.4 Southern hog (red, normal)
7.14 Tri-color hog (pink, anerythristic, and hets)
2.5 Mexican hog
2.0 Eastern hog
1.1 Dumerill boa
1.4 Brazilian rainboa boa
1.0 Woma
1.1 Black milk
3.3 Brooks king ( whiteside, normal, axanthic)
1.3 Florida king (zig zag albino)
1.1 Kenyan sand boa
1.2 Bairds ratsnake
2.4 Corns different morphs
God I hop that’s all of them.

I apologize if I seem rude, but I am very concerned about my snake. I do appreciate the help, but it is NO HELP to recommend something I have already tried, for those who really READ my post, I stated that I already tried force feeding a pink.
I REALLY appreciate the advice to try eggs, and I will try that tonight.
Unfortunately the best herp vet in my area was no help at all, and said the snake was "a lost cause".
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Jess
1.1 adult brazilian rainbows
1.2 baby BRBs born 6/18
1.0 normal corn
1.0 african brown house snake
0.1 hypo Boa constrictor
0.1 normal ball python
1.1 crested geckos
1.1 western hognoses
0.0.1 unhatched crested gecko egg
Oodles of mice and rats
1.1.2 teddy bear hamsters
0.1 paranoid parents "too many snakes snakes!"

If you can't handle force feeding a pink, it seems unlikely that tube feeding is going to go well...

Nanci
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*****
0.0.1 Normal Corn, 0.0.1 Cali King 0.1 Nelson's Milk
0.1 Tricolor Hog, 0.0.1 Eastern Hog, 1.0 Eastern Box Turtle
0.0.2 Desert Torts, 2.0 Feral Pigeons

A lot of time babies will not eat if they are dehydrated, which is very easy for them.

Set her in her water bowl to see if she will drink. Then feed her the next morning. I would still assist, until some weight gets back on her. Just having a water bowl in the cage, does not mean they are drinking.....some snakes just do not even realize it is there. Good Luck.
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

I will see if I can offer some advice.

First of all, anorexia and weight loss is a classic sign of parasite infestations. Although most veterinarians will want to have fecal sample to test first, a prophylactic dose of panacure will treat most of the common parasites.

You say that you had the heat turned out, but exactly how warm is it? Hognoses should be given access to very warm basking spots, preferably around 95°.

Force feeding. Many people claim that snakes will open their mouths or start to swallow if food is introduced into them, but I have had to do a LOT of force feeding in my days and I've never had a snake willingly start to eat in my hand when it did not to begin with, so do not get discouraged. If the snake is bringing the pinkie back out, then you are simply not following through with the whole procedure. I typically use very fine tipped hemostats, or even the end of the feeding tube, to push the pinkie down the throat. Once you have it in the throat you can close the mouth and leave just enough room to pull the hemostats back out (watch out for the fangs!). From there, it is just a matter of pressing the mouth closed and using your other hand to massage the pinkie further down. I've never had a snake spit a pinkie back up once it's gotten down to the stomach. As far as tube feeding being less successful than force feeding a whole pinkie, I disagree completely. In fact, at this point I would recommend using a syringe and a feeding tube, to inject some Jumpstart (a caloric supplement) down the throat. I can easily do this procedure in under 10 seconds and it gives the snake plenty of nutrition to live off of. Jenea has an excellent suggestion with making sure that the snake is hydrated to begin with, and using jumpstart will certainly do that. I usually mix some of the jumpstart with warm water to help it squeeze out of the feeding tube.

If you are not sure about the tube feeding, as far as being able to get it down into the esophagus and not into the epiglottis, let me know. Good luck with it, I appreciate you make any effort with a snake. But at least be comforted in knowing that you're not the only one who's had to deal with hognoses and anorexia!

Feeding tube
http://www.beanfarm.com/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=1679224.8262*Tl2Lw7&next=32&ppinc=health&exact_match=off&user4=Health

Jumpstart
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=855
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Virginia Herping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VaHS
Virginia Herpetological Society online store
http://www.cafepress.com/vaherpsociety

"The irrational fear of snakes is the only excuse a grown man has... to act like a complete sissy" - Colchicine

I appreciate all of your suggestions and will continue to keep trying. I hope you all have very happy holidays, especially since you have made mine a bit brighter.
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Jess
1.3 adult brazilian rainbows
1.2 baby BRBs born 6/18
1.0 normal corn
1.0 african brown house snake
0.1 hypo Boa constrictor
0.1 normal ball python
2.3.1 crested geckos
1.1 western hognoses
Oodles of mice and rats
0.1 paranoid parents "too many snakes!"

Hope this helps.

When I'm in dire straits with small westerns and very concerned about them being able to make it, as a last resort just to get something in thier stomach, I have successfully used goldfish.
I don't know your proximity to a pet shop that sells these. I've tried both feeder goldfish as well as rosy reds. Rosy reds are preferred by my hognose babies as a first meal. They have a very streamlined shape and go down easily. I pick rosy reds that are smaller around than the actual snake. I freeze them for 48 hours to hopefully kill parasites, then thaw them in their own juices.

I next get the hognoses and put them into a cup by themselves. I pick up the rosy red with tweezers, holding the fish lengthwise with the end of the tweezer arms almost touching the gills. I dip
the fish in it's own juice so that it has some on the end of it's mouth. I then touch the end of the fish's mouth to the snakes mouth very carefully and slowly as not to scare the snake. I remove the fish momentarily and if the snake hasn't opened its mouth, I rub the snakes mouth very gently with the fish. They usually begin to drink the moisture off of the fish and then open the mouth. I then carefully slide the fish into the mouth all the while easing my grip on the fish. Most often the snake will begin to swallow the fish. After three feedings of fish, I switch them over to pinks that are dipped in the leftover thawed fish juice.

One season I researched feeding tendencies on hatchling hognoses. Out of 122 three week old baby western hognose, 12 fed for the first time on unscented pinks, 17 fed 1st on lizard (sceloporus) scented pinks, 4 never fed and eventually died, and the remaining 89 fed on rosy reds for their first meal.

I've had good success with this method and hope that this helps.

Good luck with yours.
Happy holidays