Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I love snakes. I have never been able to have many as pets until about a year ago. A couple of days ago I ordered a snake from an add on kingsnake.com and It was supposed to arrive the next morning. I stayed home from work and called the shipping company, tracked the package and it never came. I then, called the office and they were willing to open up the office for me because it was a live animal. When they asked me what it was, I told them a snake and they flipped. They told me they were going to report the business that shipped it because sending snakes was illegal. I emailed the person who sent the snake to warn her, and she emailed me back and was pissed. She blamed me for what could hurt her shipping business and she said that I should have not told them it was a snake, and she said she would never do business with me again. I had no idea that she was doing something illegal, all she had to do was tell me. Am I crazy here or is this supposed to be a known thing? I love snakes, but if this is the way that the "business" works then I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth. Any advice or support would be great. thanks, byo

A couple of comments for you for the future:

1. It is a good idea to ask about the shipping policies of the outfit you are buying from. This way you know how to better handle a situation (like what happened to you) or else you can decide to not use that particular seller as a source.

2. Regarding #1 above, there are reptile dealers/breeders who either are verified shippers of reptiles for ground delivery or else use Delta DASH where shipping snakes is perfectly fine. Again, if you ask, you can find out who you can deal with w/o worry.

3. Shipping snakes is done all of the time, but I often wonder how many of those shipments are done on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. What I mean is, if you don't know what the shipping company's policy is and how the shipper does business, then don't offer information about what is in the box. "Lizard" is a better answer than "snake" when you are unsure about the situation. After that, look into buying from folks that ship according to the shipping company's policies.

Here's another way of looking at it:

1) Shipping non-venomous snakes is perfectly legal except through the US mail.

2) The shipping company may have a policy against it. There used to be a procedure at UPS for a dealer to get qualified to do it, but they may have stopped.

3) Many people have no idea that there is such a thing as a non-venomous snake. They may have assumed they were venomous, which IS illegal, although I assume you would have explained that.

4) Many shipping company employees have no idea what their company policies or the laws are and sometimes you have to get in touch with headquarters to straighten them out.

5) If the seller was shipping illegally or against company policy, at the very least, it's their responsibility to clue you in. I don't see that you did anything wrong.

6) The seller will probably never admit that THEY screwed up, so you might as well go somewhere else next time. You might even relate this situation to them to get an idea of whether they are shipping properly (if you care).
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

To ship a snake through UPS for example is just as illegal as it is through USPS. UPS, like USPS, will not ship a snake unless the contents of the package are hidden or otherwise misrepresented. That is illegal in both cases. Federal law requires shipments of snakes to be accurately labeled. Both agencies have policies against accepting snakes for shipping regardless of venomous status.

OK, yes, it is illegal to ship them without marking them properly. If they were marked they would be legal to ship, but UPS refuses to do so.

That part I was getting mixed up with the venomous law, which says that venomous snakes cannot be "mailed". To "mail" something means specifically to send it through USPS, though I don't think UPS has accepted venomous for many years, if ever...

The marking requirement cleverly uses the word "transport" rather than "mail" which does cover UPS. Although, a literal interpretation would say that it was actually UPS that broke the law since they are the ones that "transported" them. (I wouldn't bet on winning that argument in court though.) Also note this section does not apply if the shipper and receiver are in the same state (that whole pesky interstate commerce thing again).
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

UPS does not ship snakes period, venomous or not. The only way to ship snakes through UPS is by mislabeling the package as to contents or leaving it unlabeled. Both cases are illegal thus there is no way to legally ship snakes through UPS. The only herps UPS will ship are lizards, turtles and amphibians. All snakes are banned from shipment.

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/animals.html#Accepted / Prohibited Live Animals

Here is an important quote from the UPS web page on live animals.

In the event a package containing a prohibited item is found en route or in the UPS system, that package will be stopped at the location or UPS facility of the discovery. UPS reserves the right to dispose of the package.

Elsewhere UPS states...

All laws, ordinances, or government rules and regulations governing the transportation of live animals must be complied with by the Shipper.

It would be legal to ship snakes through UPS if their policies allowed it. What makes it illegal to ship through UPS is not the physical act of getting the snake from point A to point B by UPS, but by violating laws regarding package labeling and misrepresentation. The liability is on the individual and not UPS. I would not attempt to win a legal argument by arguing the semantics of mailing, shipping and transporting.

The situation with USPS is similar to UPS. Both are a dead end as far as snake shipping. USPS will ship lizards and turtles I believe. A pre approved Fedex account or else Delta Dash (expensive) are about the only legal choices snake shippers have. I am not sure about the policies of other carriers such as DHL except that the same laws would apply. Again, all these policies are also contingent that the specific animal being shipped is not prohibited by any other laws, including state laws where the shipment originates or its destination.

As long as the snake's OK, the story has a happy ending. And this is why I like to get my snakes at the reptile show. Seriously, if you haven't checked into whether or not there are any herp shows in your area...You should. Great selection and value. And the cost of admission is WAY less than the price of shipping. Duffy

I don't think she had the right to get pissed off at you, because you are new to the hobby and you had no idea that what she was doing was illegal. Generally, it is the businesses' responsibilty to inform customers that they will not be able to do something because it is illegal, or to inform the customers that what they are doing is illegal and therefore you shouldn't tell the USPS about it.

Generally, though, among snake sellers and buyers, a "don't ask, don't tell" is sort of the unwritten law (as was mentioned before). This was observed when I bought my Rubber Boas from a guy in Washington (it is illegal to buy or sell this species there and here in California). Just don't mention any legality issues, and it's usually fine.

When buying a snake and problems arise in the shipping process, it is best never to mention that the package contains live animals. Just say it is "extremely perishable" and you need to receive it as soon as possible (which is true). Once you mention live animals, things get more complicated. You may want to look online to see which animals are legal to ship through USPS in your area, just in case they require you to specify what kind of animal it is.

So you made a mistake... Everyone does. Don't let it ruin your desire to keep or buy snakes. For future reference though, just remember: if you're going to buy or ship snakes illegally (usually not a big deal around here because there are so many completely ridiculous regional laws regarding snakes), "don't ask, don't tell". Try to keep things as simple as possible and get the package home as quickly as you can.
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0.0 Banded California King
1.0.0 Mexican Black King
0.0.1 Goini Kingsnake
1.0.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
1.2.0 Rubber Boas

Thanks for all you help. You guys have been really helpful. The snake is doing great, held him today for the first time after letting him be for a couple of days(not easy) to get used to his new 75 gallon enclosure. He is a perfect snake, and you are right that is all that matters.

Next time just tell them its pet supplies. Thats what a manager at one of the ups stores here told me to do. It works great
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Jason

Be careful with some of the advice you are getting here regarding the purchasing and shipping of reptiles. People can and do get into legal trouble over purchasing and shipping snakes. It is true that many of the sellers on kingsnake and elsewhere not only illegally sell certain species but they illegal ship animals. The "don't ask and don't tell" policy will not keep you out of trouble. That philosophy is the equivalent of "it is only illegal when you get caught". Even though the odds are with the individual that they will get away with it these laws are getting enforced on a daily bases. It is legal for shipping agencies to check packages if they have any suspicion. You did the right thing by being honest and the shipper is liable. That is why she was angry.

People who sell animals have an obligation to sell and ship their animals within the law. Fed Ex offers shipping accounts to snake dealers as do some airlines like Delta-Dash. UPS and USPS do not ship snakes and it is illegal to use them, period. This is true in all regions. Federal law requires that the package be labeled as to the actual contents. You can't ship snakes by labeling the package lizards or pet supplies. The blatant disregard for laws is one reason laws continually get more conservative and “ridiculous”.

It boggles my mind that people are openly admitting their illegal activity in this post. I do not suggest you do anything illegal. I know of individuals who have been prosecuted under these same laws. It is extremely unlikely that someone in your situation would be. Remember, if it is illegal it IS ILLEGAL. These laws do get enforced. You are dealing with laws governing interstate commerce, federal laws, as well as individual state laws if you buy a species that is illegal to sale or possess in either state. Federal law has a provision where one state will enforce the law of another. This means that you cannot evade prosecution by crossing a state border. For example, If you buy a snake in Washington where its sale (and thus purchase) is illegal, you are still liable even if you are in a state where its purchase is legal. Enforcement agents do monitor these sites at times and some members do report such things. If I see someone illegally selling an animal I will educate them. If I see them doing it knowingly I will report them to the appropriate enforcement agency. They may or may not get addressed depending on the work load of the enforcement agent but I have seen it happen. I am sure the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife as well as the California Department of Fish and Game would be interested in Fish-Demon’s post.

Bottom line: Your shipper broke the policies of the shipping company as well as the law. Under the circumstances no one is going to hold you liable. If you knew what was going on and you knowingly tried to cover it up by lying about the package’s contents, then you could conceivably be treated as a guilty party.

THANK YOU! It amazes me how many time I read where people complain about how many new laws are being made in regards to our pets we so lovingly care for and discuss on these forums and how many of those same posters choose to break the laws and feed the fire even more.

Thanks, The herp hobby is an eclectic group of people. There is a lot of apathy and hostility towards conservation laws out there. I am of the belief that if the hobby does not do more to police it self then legislation will continue to get more and more conservative. I believe conservations laws should err on the side of the animals. Because laws are difficult to enforce and are so often violated, jurisdictional agencies will seek legislation that is very limiting to the hobbyist. They basically need to in order to even approach any type of productive result.

Cant say I agree that shipping a snake ups is illegal. Its against company policy (unless your gonna spend alot of money) but not sure about illegal.
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Jason

There are no laws preventing a company like UPS from shipping snakes if it chooses to. There are laws that state the packages must be clearly labeled as to their contents. There are also laws against misrepresenting the contents. UPS policy states they will not ship snakes, period, venomous or not. The only way to ship snakes through UPS is to misrepresent the contents. That is illegal. I assure you such concepts as mail fraud etc do apply to other shipping agencies and not just the USPS. I guarantee you that shipping snakes through UPS constitutes an illegal activity.

I guess most of us are criminals then.
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Jason

Well, then, based on your post, rhallman can rest his case.

1. Our FedGov has the right and RESPONSIBILITY to regulate Interstate commerce. That is commerce that begins in one state and ends in another. Part of that regulation is all packages, items must be correctly and accurately labeled and or placarded.

2. Misrepresenting a apckage for shipment is Illegal and a Crime that carries Federal consequences.

3. A company has the right to decide what it will or will not carry. Using that company to carry your "outside of policy" item is NOT illegal, but misrepresenting it IS.

4. Now to the meat of it. rhallman was correct. IF we as a hobbyist group do not operate within the laws, I can guarantee that that will give the anti-herp keppeing groups all the ammo they need to pursue ever more restrictive laws until we may no longer legally keep them. We may almost be our worst enemies if we do not conduct ourselves on the up and up.

Just my $.02

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but it is a direct violation of the Lacey Act to transport any wildlife without identifying the specimen/s being transported, to include scientific names, common names, number of each sex and total number of specimens being shipped.
I further find it difficult that so many, who claim to have conservation in mind, are unfamiliar with this act, as it is the oldest piece of wildlife legislation in the U.S., having been first introduced by Congressman John Lacey, in the House of Representatives in the spring of 1900 and signed into law by President William McKinley during the summer of the same year. The Lacey Act has been amended many times since its inception, many of which deal with the way wildlife is transported. For more information, anyone interested, which should be everyone who ships wildlife, whether wild caught or captive produced, should review the information located at the following URL:
www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm.
Also, interstate commerce regulations, shipping vendors and the Lacey Act are three different things, though they do manage to intertwine from time to time.
In short, the only LEGAL way to ship any wildlife is to properly label the exterior of the container as indicated above. So far as I am aware, Delta and FedEx are the only two entities which will carry live snakes, the latter which requires corporate authorization first. Of course, there are some who were grandfathered in by UPS and are still allowed to ship snakes, but such is the exception not the norm and all must conform with the Lacey Act.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947