Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i know its reccomended to house pairs seperatly untill getting them ready to breed,but suppose you were to have a very large enclosure,say 5'x6' in size?what are the chances of housing a pair permenently in this enclosure and cycling them together in the same cage when you desire to breed them.basically have them live their whole lives together??

now i understand that this is not the best way to go about it and breeding may hindered or mayed more difficult,but if i was to decide this,how much worse would my chances of producing a clutch this way than if i used the typical "popular,commercial breeder"way of seperation only untill breeding??

i know its not impossible of a task considering a cage of this size and i know clutches can be produced because the staten island zoo houses their pair of chondros together in a similar enclosure and produced eggs a couple years ago,thats why i ask.

now before you reply,please understand that i totally understand that the is a way of breeding and this style does not go by the book,but my desire is only for a nice presentation of a breeding pair and if i see breeding activity it would only be an added bonus,not the requirement or the reason for housing them together.

so again,my question really is,lets put it into a percentage of success perspective,how much better are my odds of producing a clutch by sperating them that if i just house them together all the time and just cycled in the same cage??

oh and please spare me the housing pairs may cause them to fight or injure themselves.

i understand this may be a risk but i have much reptile experience and with a cage of this size i believe that the chances are slim to none especially if you monitor them with special care.the professionals at the staten island zoo have sussfully kept a pair together for over 12 years without a single incident.so this possibility i believe may be way over exagerated.

Personally I worry more about disease transmission than anything else. That and the fact that I feed in my enclosures. All my chondros are extremely aggressive feeders and would most likely nail the other snake in an attempt to take the mouse. Chondros seem to be especially sensitive to respiratory infections and the possible added stress of having the two animals together could be enough to trigger an R.I. It wouldn't take long for both to have it. That's exactly what happened to I think it was Marcial Mendez. He lost both his breeding pair when they both ended up with an R.I. One after the other. If you want...do it. If you're as experienced as you say, than hopefully you'll recognize symptoms of stress-even if it's subtle. I'm not sure I would want my female having to breed every year, or more than once a year if the male decided. I haven't heard of multiple breedings each year, but most people don't place their animals together permanently. I know for a fact that if housed together colubrids will breed several times and quite often the poor female must lay 2-3 clutches, resulting in an animal dangerously low on weight, and I feel, compromised. In the wild, chondros would incubate their own and then move on afterward negating multiple breedings but I'm not sure what would happen in an enclosed area with eggs being removed from the female and placed in an incubator. This effectively makes her "available" again.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.4~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin,Minuet
1.0~Zigzag Bubblegum~Bazooka Joe
0.1~Neon het motley~Lumiere
1.0~Lav het motley/hypo~Storm
1.1.2~Green tree python~Whisper, Tempest, Surprise,Fuego
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie (RIP)
2.0~fat cats~Topper, Briscoe
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

You shouldn't house them together because they may fight and injure themselves..LOL Sorry, I just had to say that.

Seriously though, I have seen keepers do what you suggest with no reported problems. My two primary concerns about it has nothing to do with fighting but of feeding and disease. As common as RI's are, you understand when one falls victim, you are basically treating both. With feeding, if you end up with two aggressive feeders, just make sure they are at separate ends of a large enclosure during feeding time.

I have no experience with breeding, but find no logical reason to suggest the odds of getting more clutches whether you house them together year round or introduce them only for breeding purposes. I would suggest you only cool during the seasons you want to produce clutches. Obviously, females shouldn't be bred every year without a break. Other than not cooling on occasion, how are you going to ensure that she is not subjected to repeated breeding with them living together permanently? In the end, what you suggest can be done but as you already know, is not advisable for many reasons, and not just because of the possibility of fighting. If you are absolutely determined to do it, I would suggest a huge enlosure, and if the female produces a clutch 2 years in a row, separate them to guarantee a rest period for her. Ultimately, I would suggest not doing it at all.

Good luck,
Bart

I know of people who keep pairs together year round, they have reported some trouble to match the pairs because they showed agression, but if you have several pairs finding out who tolerates who is a matter of time and observation, you could also be lucky and have a one pair who have no problem living together,

I know of one german breeder who keeps his males seperate from the females (he does keep more females in one cage) because he has experienced females producing multiple clutches in one year which, needless to say, is not a good thing.

Jurgen.

I'll say it as well......you are taking a huge risk by housing them together. I've seen chondro aggression between cage mates first hand and it's not pretty. I know of numerous other chondro keepers that have experienced the same thing.....and yes these were adults that were housed together for about 4-5 years before this happened. The amazing part of it was that it happened in the middle of the afternoon while lights were on. Most of what I've seen is that the females are the aggressors unless you are dealing with 2 males.

As far as the cage, I don't think the size will make a difference in the situation. In order for one to retreat you would need a room size enclosure, and even then I don't think it would be large enough to escape an aggressive cage mate.

Breeding shouldn't be a problem if conditions are right. Larger cages present problems in keeping heat and humidity in check.....especially humidity. If you can get the right conditions, chondros are not hard to breed at all. Hatching eggs and getting babies started is where the REAL WORK comes into play. This is one reason you don't see a lot of large breeders breeding chondros. It takes a special breed of person to care for and raise a fresh clutch of hatchlings.

If it were me, I would just build 2 cages of equal size and not over do it. I've had 4 pairs lock up so far and 2 more females that could probably go......but we're going to put that on hold for now. Babies can be a pain in the a$$ and too many will burn you out quickly. Good luck.

Brandon Osborne

Brandon

I hope i did not come across as pro co-habitation for chondros in my last post??? I 100% agree with you that keeping 2 chondros together is very risky at best.. And, although i have heard of others that have done it, i would never take that risk.. But, i don't think that was the question that was asked.

He had originally stated that he didnt want to hear about the risk, because he has extensive reptile experiance & knows of a zoo that keeps a pair together... Although, i have no idea how either of those issues relate to his animals??

I think his mind was made up about keeping a pair in his large enclosure and he was now looking for our opinions on the percentages/odds of successful breeding when co-habitating?

Although, i could be wrong.. i have been wrong before, just ask my wife! ~

Happy Hoilidays
~ Mike Russo

Hi Mike,

I didn't take your post as that. I agree with the things you stated. There are so many ways to keep these animals. I just wanted to chime in with my personal experience. I personally think there is much more risk when keeping two animals together than most people realize. I know from first hand experience.

As for the breeding part, it can definately be done. In my last post I should have mentioned Chris Rouillie (spelling?) keeps all of his pairs together year-round and has been very successful. He allows maternal incubation with males in the same cage. His method works for him. After my experience, I chose to separate pairs until breeding.

Believe me, I know all about being wrong. lol.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays
Brandon Osborne

It sounds to me like it may work out.. I have no personel experiance with co-housing.. But, I know a few people that have housed chondros together with no problems. One of them had a pair in a 55 gallon tank with no signs of aggresion. I know that they produced for him at least one year. He sold them shortly after that so i have no other info on future breedings.

As far as fighting, i remember years ago seeing very some graphic photos of a pair of chondro's that were left together. They ended up fighting and completly shreded each other up. I don't remember the exact details of the pairing, but when i have time i will look through my books and see if i can locate the article for you.

As far as cage size, i am not really sure if the size of the enclosure would prevent fighting? i think if they are going to fight they would fight regardless. but agian that's just my opinion.

I would agree with the others that over breeding may be an issue, but that will also be somthing to be delt with later.

I would say give it a try, moniter them closely for signs of agression and/or stress and see how it goes.

Good luck

~ Mike Russo

I think it was Cathy Maynard that had to break up a breeding pair where the female attacked her male after they'd been together for weeks. I don't think I'd keep mine together longer than it takes to breed them for the season!

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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.4~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin,Minuet
1.0~Zigzag Bubblegum~Bazooka Joe
0.1~Neon het motley~Lumiere
1.0~Lav het motley/hypo~Storm
1.1.2~Green tree python~Whisper, Tempest, Surprise,Fuego
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie (RIP)
2.0~fat cats~Topper, Briscoe
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

This is only my third year breeding gtps with only 5 clutches on the ground so far and don't really feel qualified to answer the question by the original poster.

I will say that I had my first bad experience this year with a female that attacked her mate visciously!! They cycled separately, then caged together in a 36" wide arboreal enclosure for approximately one month with several copulations observed and all seemed to be going very well. Late afternoon, well before dark we heard a "thump" in the cages and my girl (which about doubles the weight of the boy) had him completely by the throat and a full body wrap around him!!

Thankfully we have perches that are easily removed because I just grabbed the perch and ran for the kitchen sink and put them both under cold running water as I physically had to pry my females mouth open and off of the male. Scared the #%&@ out of me but luck was on my side and the male was not seriously injured. Good thing too since it was a Blue male on breeder loan from another friend!!!

She ovulated 2 weeks after separation!!!

first,i must before anything say that i got some of the best advice i have ever gotten when searching for answers to difficult question on a reptile forum.

your responces seemed genuinely concerned for my snakes and for their well being and not posted for the sake of hearing yourself talk or bragging about how much you know/being condecending in any way.so for this i thank you.

normally when posting about reptiles or anything on forums for that matter you seem to get a lot of people blowing a lot of hot air and like i said just want to hear themselves talk and attempt to show how much more they know than you,lol.

this was my first experience with this forum and i must say you guys are second to none when it came to your responces to a topic that many chondro heads have stong opinions about both ways.

after reading your well informed posts,and although the percentage of your advise seems to lean more towards seperation untill breeding,rather than complete cohabitation ,i think i am going to give complete cohabitation a try anyway,but monitor it very,very closly and if i see the slightest sign of aggression i will seperate them and house seperatly.

id just like to reiterate my original statement that my main goal is to have a nice display pair and not to breed.if breeding happens it will be an added bonus but not my intention(at least not at this time.im not even sure i have an adult pair anyway,since i never had them sexed.my feelings that i have a pair are strictly based on the fact that one snake sheds sperm plugs always when shedding and the other has never(they are both over 3 years old,closer to 4).i dont know what the liklyhood of them being a pair based on this one fact(love to hear your opinion on this one!!!!!)but since my goal was never to breed i never had them formaly probed.

one last statement id like to comment on and one i found very valid.i believe it was meg who first mentioned it so i will respond to her.

yes i agree that feeding time can and will be the most dangerous time when it comes to aggression,but during the construction of my cage,i had every intention of housing them seperate but in the same cage,just added a sliding glass wall on tracks,that can be removed if i ever wanted to attempt to introduce them.since i changed my mind and made the decision to give cohabitation a shot(for astetics sake only),i removed the wall but left the tracks.i will substitute the glass partition with a black acrylic one instead and just prod them to their own corners and add the partition before feeding and remove it when they are content,full and coiled back to the typicial"im a happy chondro coil,with head placed perfectly in center"lol.

again i thank you guys for your professionalism and i hope you dont take it as an insult that i didnt take"all of your advise"i took much of it but please understand much of your advise is coming from your breeding experience and that type of perspective .i have no intention at this time for breeding this pair so i didnt think that part applied greatly.

ill keep you guys updated with photos and details and while some of you may think that cohabitation of chondro pairs is not the greatest idea,you must agree that as a display animal,a chondo pair housed together,especially of greatly different coloration,makes one of the best if not "the best"display reptiles that exhist.

The only problem I can see (aside from co-habitating which I'm against) is that you really don't know what you have. Two males housed together can create problems. It doesn't really matter if there's a female or not. You're most likely going to end up with an aggressive pairing. Two females would be better. If you end up with a male and female....for esthetic purposes only of course...they will mate eventually...cuz that's what male and female animals do. They don't know that you only want a display...they only follow instinct. Soooo, that said, you will need to have an incubator...unless you want the female to self-incubate..which adds yet more stress to the female...I don't want to sound like I'm being nasty or anything. I just want to make sure you think of the consequences of your desire to have a "display". The snakes have no clue what that is....

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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.4~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin,Minuet
1.0~Zigzag Bubblegum~Bazooka Joe
0.1~Neon het motley~Lumiere
1.0~Lav het motley/hypo~Storm
1.1.2~Green tree python~Whisper, Tempest, Surprise,Fuego
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie (RIP)
2.0~fat cats~Topper, Briscoe
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

I definitely misunderstood your original post, you mentioned breeding in it several times and I didn't see where you said you mainly wanted to just display the snakes together.

I do think it would be a bit safer to house an adult pair together long term if breeding is not your goal. You could just keep the temperatures steady year round and that could possibly prevent some of the hormonal driven fighting instincts?

I haven't had any of my snakes exhibit breeding behaviour that haven't been cycled and they generally don't stop eating either which is a nice bonus.

I know there are people who have successfully bred without cycling so there's no guarantee that they won't. Most do, as it is supposed to increase the vitality of the sperm and increase the sex drive but it's not necessary per se.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.4~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin,Minuet
1.0~Zigzag Bubblegum~Bazooka Joe
0.1~Neon het motley~Lumiere
1.0~Lav het motley/hypo~Storm
1.1.2~Green tree python~Whisper, Tempest, Surprise,Fuego
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie (RIP)
2.0~fat cats~Topper, Briscoe
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

again thanks for the advise and yes jungle,my goal is not to breed or alter temps of any other breeding initiating tactics.

i dont want to say i think i got all the advise i needed because jsut about everything mentioned was already known to me,but i did get the discussion i wanted so i could weigh the pros and cons based on the experience of others and not just my own.

there is just one topic noone touched on and i was pretty interested in.like i said have no chondro breeding experience,and i described my owning this pair since neonates and now they are between 3-4 years old.i have kep shed records and like i said without fail my one snake began shedding sperm plugs at year one and my other(who is about the same age)has never in the 3 years that i have owned her has shed a sperm plug.

again,3 years snake number one never fails to shed a sperm plug and snake number 2 has never in 3 years.

as professional or even amature breeders,what are your thoughts on this??if you were a betting man or woman(meg)lol,what woudld you put the odds at that i have a pair bases with only this information???oh,also neither snake has ever gone off feed either.both and never refused a meal in the 3 years or more i have owned them.

hehe, snake lady here too!! I know it's not 100%, but I strongly believe growing up babies from the neonate age gives us definite advantages. In my experience so far snakes that I've had long term I've found sexing them by their sheds to be extremely accurate. If I were a betting woman I'd probably put money down that your pair are indeed a 1.1 pair.

FWIW, sexing by eating habits and early growth rate has proven to be pretty unreliable for me so far too!!

Eating habits defintely are not indicative. My male has never refused a meal yet. The Aru I'm getting is said to eat like a female, but the guy who bred it, says all of his Aru eat like pigs no matter the sex. Sheds are supposed to be a pretty accurate indicator. I'm waiting for my male to shed to see and confirm his sex along with the probing. He's certainly acting like a male lately. Cruising the enclosure all night...AND the daytime too. No sleep for the sex deprived!! Which, back to your delemma, they don't need cycling to put them into "the mood". You might have a breeding whether you or she want it.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.4~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin,Minuet
1.0~Zigzag Bubblegum~Bazooka Joe
0.1~Neon het motley~Lumiere
1.0~Lav het motley/hypo~Storm
1.1.2~Green tree python~Whisper, Tempest, Surprise,Fuego
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie (RIP)
2.0~fat cats~Topper, Briscoe
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

I don't get it.. Why not just probe to determine sex????

~ Mike

I think some people don't know how, and they are worried they will hurt the snake if they try it. I definitely would recommend that someone with experience show you how to do it. It takes a bit of finesse.
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1.0~amel corn~C.S.
1.4~Aztec Okeetee corns~Coatl,Maya,Acatl,Tepin,Minuet
1.0~Zigzag Bubblegum~Bazooka Joe
0.1~Neon het motley~Lumiere
1.0~Lav het motley/hypo~Storm
1.1.2~Green tree python~Whisper, Tempest, Surprise,Fuego
0.2~Rhodesian Ridgebacks~Akilah, Ona
0.1~Old black Lab~ Callie (RIP)
2.0~fat cats~Topper, Briscoe
3.0~Horses~Zaarah,Galliano,Achilles.....
www.franclycac.com

you can only determine the sex of males by shed sperm plugs. Any animal that shed without plugs should be probed. Some males will never shed sperm plugs and this can be a big problem. Even probing can sometimes be questionable. As I've stated before, I have a 6.5 year old female biak that probes 10 scales deep which would indicate being a male normally. Most of the time we know by probing, but the only 100% accurate method of sexing is by breeding and producing young. Let the flaming begin. Good luck.

Brandon Osborne

I agree with you B...
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Hey man, are you guys back from Norway? I hope you had a good trip. Finally getting the new snake room in order. Let me know when you get home.

Brandon

Nope were still in Norway... We fly back the 2nd...
I will have to come visit and check out your remodeled snake roomhouse...
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)