Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok, ok still on the topic of sanannah or white throat. our camaras are out of order so these inquiries are a bit nieve, so try to work around me. in my last post we went over hybridization, answer: savannah X white throat might happen when hell freezes over. and i thought we concluded that my buddy had a nice looking savannah. now the next bit of info i want is what color tounge should a savannah monitor have? i read somewhere that white throats tounges posses a blueish purpleish tone of color. now, what do savannahs have? i am still a bit perplexed by pics i have seen online. i havnt seen a single savannah that looked (in pattern/coloration mind you)a bit like a white throat. but i have seen pics of white throat females that resemble savannahs. believe me you when i get some pics you all will see them.

PEACE

I am far from an expert on either species, however based on my sources, that being an academic paper written by Robert Sprackland, both Varanus exanthematicus and V. albigularis should have darkly colored tongues. Therefore tongue coloration cannot be used as a distinguishing characteristic. Anyhow, from my understanding, the exact status of what is going on with species and subspecies of V. exanthematicus and V. albigularis is somewhat unclear, and they are one of the many groups of monitors that need further study to understand the specific status of each and their subspecies if any.
-Eric

They have been considered 2 completely different species since 1989 or maybe before. I think you read that in "Giant Lizards", just look at the photos (half are misidentified), and not to even start on the captive care (scary).

"Varanus Albigularis (white-throated-monitor), is a complex of now 3 sub-species, and formerly considered a sub-species itself. V. Albigularis Microstictus is a Blackthroat, rare in the pet trade, the color and pattern of V. Albigularis sold here as a blackthroat is called Ionidesi (Ionides- famous snakeman).
Albigs none the less are a large species of monitor that is semi-arboreal yet spends alot of time also pressed between and under rocks or in a burrow which they can dig like a highly skilled mining team. They are one of the strongest most powerful monitors at any size, are escape artists, and can rip their cages apart pretty easily if not made very very strongly. They grow from 5-7 ft in length, and up to 38lbs (around there). They lay large clutches of eggs, anywhere from 21-52 eggs. Something to think about also, they are the best (or worst tail slappers period among monitors, depends if your on the recieving end I guess), very accurate tail whip!! Extremely powerful jaws and horriblely painful bite in which they usually dont let go for anywhere from a second to hours, they have evolved those extra muscles in the jaw and special design for crushing turtles, tortoise, giant land snails, and your hand if they get a hold of it.
The V. Exanthematicus or Bosc monitor called by the American pet trade the savannah monitor, is a medium sized African monitor found closer to the equator but rarely found in the same areas as the whitethroat which preys on the smaller animal if in the same geographic areas. The Bosc monitor is a common food source for cobras and African garter snakes as well other venomous and non venomous species, where as the albigularis being a large African species is a common predator of those same snakes. Many animals have a darker band of color from the eye back or forward to act as camaflage to prevent the eye from showing up as easy to a predator."

Actually SHvar, I do not deny that they have been considered separate species for quite awhile, and I agree they are different species. What I meant by saying that "the exact status of what is going on with species and subspecies of Varanus exanthematicus and V. albigularis is somewhat unclear" is that different scientific sources report different numbers of subspecies of each, that is what are considered subspecies by one source are not always considered a subspecies by another scientific source. It is also possible that there are in fact more species than just Varanus exanthematicus and V. albugularis, although it is currently accepted that there are just these 2 species.
Further, the subspecies termed "occelatus" has been described as being a subspecies of both Varanus albigularis and V. exanthematicus, as of unclear specific status, and has more recently been demoted to not being a true subspecies, but rather simply a certain color phase of V. exanthematicus.
Most importantly, both species exhibit a considerable amount of intraspecific variation, and the two are very similar to each other, yet there has not yet been any testing of molecular data to examine their specific status.
Note that none of this information is from the "Giant Lizards" article you mentioned, in fact I have never heard of that article before now. Rather, this information is from my own personal examination of the academic literature on Varanids, and on Eric Pianka's 2004 book "Varanoid Lizards of the World," which is the most complete and up to date source on Varanoidea currently available.
-Eric

On monitor lizards (R.J.Sprackland), one of the worst monitor books period as far as captive care, and for misidentified species pictures, of course his follow up on savannah and grassland monitors was just as bad, almost.
I know about the speculation on ocellatus, that has been discussed for years, in fact someone on a forum had a bosc that was identified by Mark Bayless as ocellatus, to me it looked nothing even close to an albigularis, in fact all it was, a light colored bosc, like thousands Ive seen in the pet industry no different.
When you look at the 2 species (albigularis, and exanthematicus) there is NO mistaking them, period, unless they are the same size, your blind, and have no sense of feel, and have never seen or felt either one before. Personally I think the author of this post has never seen either before this one in person, there would be no doubt otherwise.
I could wear a blind fold, touch the back of both species with one finger, or the legs, or neck, and tail especially and tell you with 100% certainty which species was which, its that obvious. But, I bet I could mistake a nile, ornatus, and possibly albigularis the same way, one finger touch the back, neck, etc, once with a blindfold on.
This person needs to post a few good pictures, personally Im starting to wonder if they just want to hope its something usual, if they post a pic and its identified, the fun is over(fantasy).

Oh, OK. I haven't seen that book, though now that you mention it as a book I think I have seen it available online before. Anyway, the individuals I've seen in the pet trade are generally pretty easily identifiable to at least the currently accepted Varanus exanthematicus or V. albigularis. I was just answering his question about tongue color of V. exanthematicus. My reference to Sprackland was his paper on interspecific tongue color variation, I believe published in 1999. It is in Mertensiella II, the volume of academic papers published after the Second Multidisciplinary World Conference on Monitor Lizards. I wanted to be sure I mentioned that the information was from Sprackland as my interest is mainly in Asian and Australian Varanids (especially those of New Guinea), so it is not from personal examination that I know V. exanthematicus have darkly colored tongues.
-Eric

Remember to tongue colors and especially a species I havent kept now in a few years. It slips my mind exactly what color a bosc tongue is, I know its lighter colored than an albig.
If you sit 2 side by side the same length, or close. The albig will have much longer legs, be thinner built, longer neck, big head, much longer tail compared to body length, will have a double keeled tail, not round. Also if you get bit by both youll never forget the albigs bite, also the tail slap. Albigs have an appetite that is huge and are very very powerful creatures in comparison.

tongue color is directly related to body pigmentation. On very dark individuals, its dark(normal) but on lite individuals, it can will lighter or pink. In recent years, many very lite Savs have hit the pet trade. Those it could vary more dependant on individual color then species.

When a small sample is looked at, one could easily make the old this species does this. But when looking at a large sample, it doe not work. Cheers

Can be different in one species to another.
Post pics, its not a hybrid, they are far too different species to do so, to look at one and the other theres no way to mistake them. Anyone who has seen both (especially in person) would never mistake either for each other.
This is a very very large bosc, normally they are about 1-1.5ft shorter full grown (on average). The skull and head are different, the eyes are different, the mouth, the nostrils, the neck, the scales on the neck, the body build, scales on the body, the legs and scales on those legs, the tail, its shape, the scales, the keel or lack there of, the length of tail, hemipenes (sexual organs), adult shape and size, feet are shaped different, claws are even different. Colors patterns, size of scales, nose, you name it, far from mixing the 2 up.
Instead of trying to convince yourself or others without seeing the lizard, post multiple good pictures of it.
Bosc and any other monitor have colors that change throughout their entire life, they have less color variation from one individual to another compared to many species.
Measure the lizards tail length, measure its body length, post both, several good pictures.

Whithroats, a male.

2 more males.

A very dirty female whitethroat.

Another male, missing a foot or so of tail.

the last photo looks all female to me, are you sure it's male?

That lizard is available to who ever wants it, in person I see a male. He was given to me, grew a foot in a few months only, nasty attitude. Had someone interested that turned down $100 plus shipping, oh well.
I dont handle this lizard unless I have to (very rarely). Got a huge head, was wild caught, probably a few years old or more. 4ft long with tail missing.
Ill take a look sometime this weekend, maybe get it out to take another look.
Oh well, if female it really doesnt matter, always hungry.

This to me looks like a female with a stunted growth, the tail base is too small in diameter to be a male at this size, even a stunted male would show a larger tail base.

Have you tried introducing her to your male?

Sobek (my monsterous fixed female)and that one.

A friends big WT, hes 5.5ft plus (havent measured in a while).

The picture of Sobek back a few years ago, it appeared below the pic of Blaize. Hmmm...

What would you say causes a monitors growth to be stunted? Im sure it probably comes down to a combination of all aspects of husbandy but is there one particular thing that influences it the most? Such as poor diet, not feeding enough, not enough heat? What do you think?

What I really mean to say is retarded (poor) growth, probably the result of poor temps and food.

A stunted monitor is a morbid deformed lizard, the sings are shorter limbs, short nose and often deformed mandible, kind of like it hit the wall at 50km.
Sever case are obvious, grossly deformed spinal and body.

By the way I saw a stunted water monitor yesterday, the only obvious sing was a short head. It was a 2 year old 2 1/2feet TL, of course this lizard might have other symptoms not visually detectable.
I bet most keepers would buy such an animal without knowing about its condition.

Thanks for the info. I was just curious because as I understood it, food is not as readily available in nature as it is in captivity. They have the ability to go for long periods of time in between feedings, but that does not seem to stunt their growth, does it? I was just wondering if they were considered stunted in captivity because they are not growing at the insane rates as they are with other keepers that are power feeding them. Would they eventually grow to a large size at just a slower rate if the food was not as plentiful, given all the other conditions were good?

Good point, however wild monitors have the option to slow there metabolism, there lies the difference.
Rgds

Sorry I just read the first part of your post.

It’s a combination of poor temps and dehydration that cause captive to stunt, there’s nothing wrong about slow growth if the animal is supported accordingly, however this controlled growth is more difficult to achieve then proper husbandry. Wild monitors are weather dependent. Captives are keeper dependent. Unfortunately every keeper seems to have there own definition of varanids need.

Good call. Thanks again for the input. Im just curious because my water monitor is not at the size I expected it to be at. I have had a basking temperature of 140, but recently added another at 175. She seems to use both now. I have been feeding every other day or so, because for some reason, I was fearing she might become obese. Just doing a little experimentation with substrates and temps and stuff so we will see if things change for the better and she becomes a monster like shes meant to be.

Happy holidays to you!

Water monitors don’t need such high temps, 130f is plenty if your gradient is 90-78f, by reducing your basking (wattage) the air in your exhibit will better hold moisture, this increase in hydration will allow a better growth for the monitor.
Right now chronic dehydration is your problem, you may not recognise it, especially if your monitor seems to act normal and feed and all, but it is actually fighting to stay alive, the food and water intake is burned to fast (high metabolism) it cant store energy for growth.

Heat is not everything, hydration and food are just as important, a good combination of these allow excellent growth, when these are imbalance performance is affected.

I use higher temps for other species (black throat) but most Asian or water loving species do better with 130f basking, even my nil’s do better.

So Ive been able to keep the humidity between 50 and 60% recently. What should it be at? Ive been trying to just experiment with those few variables to see what works best for my monitor. Its definately a learning process and I appreciate your feedback. I also welcome any further advice(experiences) you may want to share so I try to make her happy.

I am offering a rang of options that work for water monitors, not saying they cant use lower or higher temps, of course they can but then need more options for other needs.

Nature offers plenty of options, captives have little in comparison.

Your cage can be 80% saturated but under the basking your monitor breath dry as hell air, this is what high wattage bulbs do.
Theirs still many things to learn about monitors, but we do know they lose most water via the mouth and lungs.
Also an other keeper housing his monitor in the same manner as you may experience faster growth, theirs always the question of support. Quantity, quality, frequency all matters.

You said your feeding every second day to avoid obesity, when given good options its almost impossible to over feed a monitor, they will stop eating at one point, mine eat there full and leave the rest, yet I never seen obesity.

Yes, I know there is still much to learn. I am feeding him every day now and think I mentioned that I am changing some things around because I realize the situation my water had was not ideal. I am doing my best to try to give him choices as Frank normally suggests.

I know that much of the success had with monitors has come from experimentation, trying new things, and learning from mistakes. So I am in that process now.

Thanks again, mate.

Your completely wrong. Comparing captivity to natures is easy, but you have to understand what your working with.

Both in captivity and in nature, the animal(a monitor) has a genetic potential for growth and reproduction. Its task in nature is to achieve as much as it can. In captivity this does not change. All monitors are only trying to achieve their potential. Are you?

In nature, circumstances and design can limit this. Droughts, fires, pathogens, parasites, seasons, etc. On the otherhand, nature also supports monitors so well, they are abundant. They reproduce regularly in spite of the above and parasites(with every meal) They are stronger and faster and can survive not only longer, but longer periods of adverse conditions. Then recover and grow like weeds. Can you do that in captivity?

When food is abundant in nature, there is so much food, monitors are feed anytime they want. They can feed all day everyday, for long periods. These periods can last decades, to months to days. The giant difference is, nature offers deadly extremes and extremes of plenty. Nature does not budjet food. You know, heres your one mouse and a cricket or roach, this week. Wild monitors eat when hungry. Or at least have the ability to find food anytime they want.

If you have ever been where monitors live. There are tons of food available all the time. Bugs, frogs, rodents, birds, bats, insects, tons and tons of other reptiles(which they love) things like billions of geckos, skinks, snakes, other monitors and lizards, all their eggs and offspring. Have you ever been to a tropical area. Its sorta annoying with all the bugs. Roaches by the billions, not trillions. And your saying monitors cannot find this stuff. You should understand, monitors consume just about all vertibrae matter, insect, mollusk, gastropods, pellecipods(sp, bi-valves). Sir, they are not that limited.

Also the term "power feed" is plain and simply stupid. What the heck does it mean? does it mean feeding an animal when its hungry? or forcing it to feed when its not? I hate to tell you sir, you cannot force monitors to eat when they are not hungry. Not without some device like a caulking gun or something. Do you know people using caulking guns to feed their monitors?

So, I imagine those who feed hungry monitors and then receive superior growth and reproduction, do you consider these folks poor keepers. Are you saying they are poor because they allow their monitors to achieve results closer to the monitors actual genetic potential? then others who do not.

Or are you saying these people are exceeding these animals genetic potential? Wow, that would be amazing. I get the feeling that is impossible to do with the only variables being food and temps.

I imagine it could be done with gene splicing and such or the application of various hormones. You know, like in the cattle, fowl, fish, industries. Is anyone doing those things with monitors????

So all and all, I think your misguided and lacking a grasp of biology. It appears to me, those saying this are those who are afraid to face their own failures. If your monitor is slow growing or does not grow to its normal potential, ITS YOUR FAULT. Not some others who actually achieve close to the animals potential. Or just plain jealousy may be involved.

I think you may want to consider, what would are captives do if they were FULL of parasites at all times. My bet is, nature supports them better then the best of us. Because I know if my monitors were infested with parasites, they would not grow or reproduce so well. Nature must be one great keeper, when she wants. Cheers

Hey Frank,

I never claimed to know anything about them in nature. I just said, "as I understood it". Meaning I was open to being corrected. Obviously if I had the opportuity to travel and see for myself, I would and I would have a much stonger position/opnion. However, that wasn't even what I was trying to focus on.

So yes, unfortunately, I have not been to where monitors live. Im still young and will do it when I have the resources to do so. You are right, I do not have a biology background. It was not until just recently that I decided to follow my passion and pursue working with animals, including monitors. But I have degree in finance. Do I criticize you for not knowing as much as I do about that? No, in fact I don't. I would respect and embrace your willingness to learn instead of telling you how much you don't know. And that is why I am going to continue to work with monitors and do my best to learn from them and the resources available. And I'm going back to school in the spring to learn something about biology. At least its a start, right?

Obviously you took great offense when I said power feeding. Yes, sometimes I enjoy a little play on words. You took it way to serious. I don't think I said anything about force feeding them. Are you saying that monitors in nature are growing 4 feet in 3 months(I don't recall the exact number) just like some of the monitors in captivity being successfully kept?

You are assuming a lot. I never said that keepers receiving superior growth and reproduction from their monitors are poor keepers. I believe, as you do, that is achieving success.

I never said that if my monitor was experiencing slow growth, it was not my fault. Where did you get that?!? Indeed, you are very wrong in that aspect. I realize that it IS my fault and that is the very reason I am trying to make changes and learn from the past.

Wait, why am I having to defend myself against things I never said or claimed, they are all just judgements you made against me. Probably one of the reasons this forum gets so off topic.

So I would like to be a successful keeper and achieve great growth results and eventually reproduction...now I just have to figure out how to do that. Any suggestions? I have two basking spots in the cage. One of them is 170 and the other is 130. I have a retes stack under the 170 spot. The humidity is between 50 and 60%. The ambient temp ranges from 76-89 degrees. The cage is 7'X4'X2'. If you are going to tell me to offer and range or something else general then why can't you appreciate the fact I am trying to offer these things and experimenting with different scenarious to see what works best? Isn't that what you did? Or were you just perfect the whole time?

And on a side note, when you are trying to tell me "how much I don't know, or don't take responsibility for my monitors" please say "you're". That means "you are". The term "your" is used to show posession. Same goes for the word, they.

Hope you have a Merry Christmas and a wonderful holiday season.

Yes, the term power feeding is dumb. Its one of those terms that sets back progress and understanding of this subject.

You can go on and on, but it matters not. I mentioned all that stuff in order for you to RETHINK your use of a horrible wivestail.

Simply put, don't worry about me, and what I know about finances, I may know a lot, or not. But sir, that has nothing to do with this subject. This is a monitor forum not a finance forum. So you are only as smart as it pertains to this subject. As you are HERE, another context thing.

Enough of that. You need to rethink your position and understanding of what power feeding is. Period.

The first question is still the same. Is feeding a hungry monitor, power feeding?????????? That is in the context of this forum. Then next, is not feeding a hungry monitor cruel? These are questions you have to ask yourself and seriouly think about.

Most people who use that term, do so, to justify there poor husbandry results when compared to others superior husbandry results. Others use it out of pure ignorance.

In the thread above the post by Jodi helps raise this question again, read it. Cheers

I did read it, in fact I read every post on this forum, probably like you do. Forgive me, I used a term that offended you. That was not my intent, however you seem to be obsessing over it. If its about the monitors, why are you obsessing over something that doesn't matter. So I need to feed my monitor more. I get it. I actually figured that out myself when I was not seeing the results I was anticipating. So I had to change what I was doing. Isn't that what I am supposed to be doing? If I used the word incorrectly, all you had to say was why you think it was an inappropriate use of the word and I would understand that. I am not retarded. But I am open to advice, because I know there is a lot to learn. At least I give a [bleep]. Right? You wanna take me on a trip to see some monitors? I would love to go. You wanna let me know if you will be at any shows so I could go and chat with you for a while? Im willing to learn, but focusing on my grammer and use of words is just details.

I bought a Nile at a store about 7 months ago. They one other hatchling for sale at the time. Since then the one I have has grown to just over 3'. I bought a Timor at the same place about 3 weeks ago. I was looking at what I thought was a baby nile with markings almost identical to the ones on the one Ihad purchased months earlier. I asked the guy running the store if he knew if the niles they were getting came from the same place. He told me that that particular lizard had come from the same clutch as mine and the reason it was still so small was because they had kept in such a small cage (10 gal aquarium) and kept it only on a "maintenance" diet. I had been thinking of purchasing this monitor along with the timor but when he told me this i decided not to. do you think this animals growth is permanently stunted. I was holding it and it looked normal and was quite feisty.

It will grow but I don’t think it will ever reach full potential.
Who knows?

Heres another one for you. I bought a nile at another store about a month before I bought the one i just told you about. It ate within an hour of bringing it home. Try to follow. The first nile was voracious and grew about an inch in the first month. The second lizard, the one purchased at the store mentioned in my last post was a little over half the size of the other. Both have grown steadily and have been kept under almost identical conditions. now, all the sudden about 3 months ago the second nile just began eating like crazy. I'm not into obesed animals so all along, if they begin to look fat I discontinue feeding for one or two days. The second lizard would eat as much as I would put in the cage and never looked fat. It just grows longer. Now the second one is over 3' and the first around 2'6". What do you make of this?

I can’t comment on this as I don’t know exactly the conditions these monitors have been kept inn. Growth in monitors is directly related to heat hydration and food, this is why my lizards can grow twice as fast or slower then an other keeper lizards, growth is as variable as husbandry. I have never kept a stunted monitor but know a few keepers who did, an apparently they live normal life’s and even reproduce if given the opportunity.

As for the growth difference, who knows? Too many variable for anyone to know.

The problem is, there are a million color phases of both. Also around here many folks base species concept on whether its pretty or not. There is indeed that wide of a gap with what is asked here.

If you do not have or can produce a pic, then your simply out of luck. I bet you drive a ford, no a chevy, no a honda, no a toyota. Your car has wheels, oh then its a Saturn, or a Izuzuzzzuuu. Wait, its little, well that narrows it down. Get what I mean. Your not offerring anything of help.

If your want offer something more definable, like scale counts or type. That way some one with a book may help, but I doubt it. Ya just need a picture. Cheers and happy holiday season.