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parthenogenesis in the UK

lele Dec 22, 2006 11:31 AM

Did you guys hear about this?
'Virgin births' for giant lizards

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Replies (11)

dianedfisher Dec 22, 2006 12:30 PM

Lele:
Rick Gordon used to post on the CWD forum and he advised me to incubate all eggs just in case since parthenogenesis wasn't ruled out in a lot of species. That article even made our local paper, so it must have covered pretty widely. How are all of your moths doing? Is Cyrus's eye any better? Also, I thought I read that an excess of Vit. A can mimic symptoms of too little. Have you entertained the idea of ging the other direction with the Vit. A? Merry Christmas, Diane
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dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

lele Dec 22, 2006 02:50 PM

yeah, pretty cool stuff! I recall a year (maybe two, three?) there was a discussion on this board about parthenogenesis in some lizards. There are a lot of insects that do it (aphids probably being the most well known - they have a really interesting life cycle!) and I believe certain bird species. Thanks goodness humans can't, huh? There are too many of us already! lol!)
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

blupanther Dec 22, 2006 04:30 PM

Ha! That would be a convenient excuse for many. I swear daddy! It was parthenogenesis!

kinyonga Dec 22, 2006 11:20 PM

There is lots more information out there than what I have listed below...
http://members.aol.com/Attic21/CreatureofDay/whip.html
"In 15 of the Cnemidophorus species there are no males. They reproduce without fertilization, a process known as parthenogenesis of "virgin birth"."

http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/articles/Parthenogenesis.php
"where AP has been described, females have dissimilar sex chromosomes (ZW), while males have two copies of the same chromosome (ZZ). In AP, if the egg and the second polar body each contain a Z chromosome, when they are combined, a male offspring will be produced. If they both contain a W chromosome (a 50% chance), the egg will be non-viable (WW). This is what causes the high proportion of infertile eggs in AP parthenogenesis."

http://www.orgs-evolution-knowledge.net/Index/EvolBiolPapers/Content/Hall1970/Hall1970.htm
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15269200

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Parthenogenesis
"An interesting aspect to reproduction in these asexual lizards is that mating behaviors are still seen even though the populations are entirely female. One female plays the role formerly played by the male and mounts the female that is about to produce eggs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidodactylus_lugubris
"parthenogenetic gecko, Lepidodactylus lugubris"

blupanther Dec 22, 2006 11:39 PM

Make's me wonder about the eggs from virgin females I've thrown out in the past.

lele Dec 23, 2006 12:38 PM

pretty guy! I love the pastel on his lower half of tail and legs
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

blupanther Dec 23, 2006 01:27 PM

Thanks, the first time he saw my female all the green background turned the same color as his tail is in this pic. I wish I had a camera handy. I was just introducing them to see how he'd react, I am still waiting for her to show receptive colors. When she is ready I'll make sure my camera is in hand to capture Sniper's display.

lele Dec 23, 2006 12:42 PM

yes, but I believe this is the first of the BIG lizards, komodo in particular. It's an interesting process of nature, regardless, in that she takes care of what needs to be taken care of (in the those that regularly do it). Sort of like certain spiders (e.g. black widow) which can retain sperm for YEARS! She then releases her eggs wen conditions are just right. I know tarantulas do, too but I don't think as long as the widow. Ma nature - gotta love her
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

phwyvern Dec 23, 2006 06:31 PM

>>yes, but I believe this is the first of the BIG lizards, komodo in particular. It's an interesting process of nature, regardless, in that she takes care of what needs to be taken care of (in the those that regularly do it). Sort of like certain spiders (e.g. black widow) which can retain sperm for YEARS! She then releases her eggs wen conditions are just right. I know tarantulas do, too but I don't think as long as the widow. Ma nature - gotta love her

Black widows can retain sperm from a single mating yes and they can use that sperm to create 1-9 egg sacs, but their lifespan is actually only around 18 months.... not years. The only way to keep a black widow female alive more than 2 years is to never mate her. The process of egg laying is what drives the health of the spider into the ground until it is worn out and dead. Even with a virgin widow, you are looking at 3-4 years.. 5 years tops.

Reptiles can retain viable sperm for about 1-2 years. Any viable offspring (without additional mating) beyond that time frame should be suspected as parthenogenesis at work.

I have an eastern kingsnake hatchling. She hatched back in July. I've had the mother of that hatchling at work for almost 8 years now. In all the time I've had the mother she has not been mated with a male kingsnake. The mother laid 10 eggs in May. Since she had not been mated, logically one would assume to throw the 'infertile' eggs out. However, of the 10 eggs, 6 looked like normal fertile eggs and the other 4 were obviously slugs. On a whim, I incubated the good eggs. 4 of the 6 "good" eggs developed blood vessels after two weeks of incubation... about halfway through the incubation process, the 2 eggs that hadn't developed vessels molded and collapsed. Then starting about 2 weeks before the time of expected hatching, things started going down hill....the eggs slowly stopped showing signs of blood vessels when candled... the vessels thinned and dwindled and 3 eggs molded and collapsed. The 4th egg surprisingly hatched.

Logical conclusion - parthenogenic baby.

The mother is an aberrant patterned animal and the baby is even more aberrant than the mother. That's the only similarity between the two. Not sure where I could go to get DNA testing on the snakes done to confirm the genetics of the two animals though by everyone's account and from the time line it can likely be considered bona fide.

It will be curious to see if the mother lays another clutch next spring and what the outcome would be.


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PHWyvern

lele Dec 23, 2006 07:07 PM

Interesting about your kingsnake.

I have a friend who does research on spider silk, spinnerets, etc. at a local university. He had been given a BW from a colleague at another univ. who had had her for about two in which time she had mated once. The BW lived in Mark's care for another 2 when she laid an egg sac. She lived another year and produced one more.

In the wild they seem to average a one year life span but, in captivity they seem to survive much longer - as is usually the case with most animals for obvious reasons (predator, toxins, temps, etc.) He has her progeny of a couple generations - grand- or maybe even her great-grand-kids!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

lele Dec 23, 2006 12:37 PM

:e
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

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