Reptile & Amphibian Forums

and more advanced.

Is, they are not humans, they cannot read, they do not go to school(dumb things) I bring this up because, so often here and other forums. Keepers, newbies and the advance quote numbers, this temp or temp range. This humidity, this hide, this and that whatever.

Then they often follow with, but my monitor is not doing this or something is wrong, etc.

They say these numbers like they are meaningful. Well these numbers are the problem as well. You see, these numbers have nothing to do with monitors. Monitors and all reptiles cannot read, and do not understand what numbers are, even if they could read. They do not know what 87F is, or even 8 or 7, muchless F. They do not have the slighist idea what any of that means.

But, they are experts in feel. They understand Feel. Thats what they know. If it feels right, they use it. It does not matter what the temps or humidity are or what the numbers say they are.

In fact, they have organs that sense and feel, we do not have. Which means, we have no way of understand what they are feeling. But sadly, they do not know what numbers are. They know right from wrong, without having to be taught(how cool is that)

Why I bring this up is, people think that offering a set of numbers is all there is to it. If fact, that has nothing to do with them. It only has to do with you. As you understand numbers, but do not understand how to FEEL or SENSE, not like they do. You rely on numbers, their life depends on feel. In simple terms, if it feels right, they use it. Or very much the opposite, if it feels wrong, they don't use it. NO MATTER WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY.

The numbers are a guide for you and have nothing to do with the monitors(not cryptic, but very meaningful). Numbers are a place to start, a zone sort of. They are to allow you to get in the area of use. They are not the area, but a guide for YOUR understanding. Remember, numbers and terms, are for your use. You are suppose to understand that you have to adjust to the monitor, no matter what the numbers say. (the monitors is the subject)

Monitors are not singular, they do not understand temps alone, or humidity alone. They understand them together and more. They understand those in combination with other senses, like feel. To complicate it even more, they combine those things with behavior. An example would be, the proper temps in a place or method they do not understand. An example of that is, air temps. Air temps are a loose guide to surface and mass temps. Its mass temps they feel, not air temps alone. Air temps may and I say may, give you the human a loose idea of mass and surface temps. But monitors could care less. They only care about the ability to reach a goal. All three of those are taken as one, temps to reach a goal. Most likely they understand air temps the least. Silly thing is, we humans mainly understand air temps the best.

A real funny thought, I often laugh at weather reports. They list the temps, then list another temp. Like its 108F out, but feels like 115F or 101F. depending on humidity. hahahahahahahahahahaha. To make it clear, monitors could careless about the 108F and only care about the feels like. I wonder why care about the 108 and not the feels like?

When this is combined with behavior makes monitors a great challenge. Monitors have base behaviors thats constant with all species, but do vary by species and individuals. Another challenging thought. With that in mind, just giving them a number is sort of naive. Don't you think?

The point is, if there is something wrong with your monitor, its sick or not performing correctly or performing normal(a better word) then the numbers you give are wrong, no matter what they are. They are only a guide, but when your guide gets you lost, its wrong.

Think of it this way. Would you eat your tasty dinner if it was served on a plate of horse poop? Maybe if you were starving. I get the feeling in many cases we are serving the monitors their needs on a plate of horse poop. Its not the numbers, its the horse poop thats the problem. Cheers and Happy holidays

Frank, I think you finally have put into words something you have been trying to say for a while now. The problem is for people to really let go of the "numbers" game. That, unfortunately may be difficult for many to do. Not impossible, but definately difficult. As an author I was for many years prone to the mentallity of making my monitors fit a template. I wanted them to act a certain way, or do a certain thing without letting the monitor tell me what it wanted to do. We all have to let go of the template. I've gotten better at it, but even today still catch myself slipping into the old thought pattern...and then saying..."Rob, give the lizard what IT NEEDS and then let it do what IT WANTS to do". If I ever write publish anything about monitors again I will be taking a much different approach than I used to use.

You know Rob when a walk by my cages I know who needs to feed and who doesn’t, I can also see many behaviours that leads me to make changes. However when someone posts and says they use high energy temps but offer low energy feeding, I much prefer to send them back to first base and let them progress at there own past. It may be easy for us to understand support, but it sure is not for the beef jerky cage keepers.

If it was Robyn and other fine suppliers would not advise any rang of options for these monitors. Their is a need for a base to start from.

If you ever write an other book, are you going to avoid basic husbandry?

Rgds

Hi Jobi, I too am confused, I did not respond to you, I thought I was responding to Robert.

Also a template, is a pattern. As in a pattern to copy to make duplicates of something.

With monitors in the old days and also today. People form templates for husbandry. Only they kept forcing the monitors to fit the template instead of using the monitor as the template.

Like caresheets. Many take them as instructions and not a loose guide. This is why I have said so many times, people think these wonderful animals are windup toys or dolls. They think all there is to do is apply a caresheet and it WILL WORK.

Anyway, it surely was nothing against you or what you have said, only an addition to what you said. Merry Christmas

All is fine I understand now!

I know you where responding to Robert, but this is obviously in relation to the below post, and I didn’t understand it completely.
From my point of view, I though you guys where politely telling me to shut up!
Witch of course you don’t need to be polite about, I can take a whip any day.

Rgds

Hope your enjoying charismas as we are up north.

Actually I assumed Robert was referring to the whole thread about not sticking to one set of rules. that type of thing.

Also I already understand something about both of us. We do not understand what "shut up" means. I get the feeling we both think it means "to quit" and we do not quit, do we? hahahahahahahaha.

We both understand there is no such thing as failure. failure only is what happens when we quit. we have not quit yet. Merry Christmas

Jobi, I'd never tell you to shut up......ever.
Merry Christmas man,
Rob.

FR, you are right, you have to be able to read your monitors, and react accordingly. give them the tools to accomplish what they need. the monitors are smarter than us when it comes to monitor husbandry.

but i think what folks often forget is the ability to read the animals is not a beginner trait. the ability to apply monitor THEORY and STRATEGY is not a beginner trait. not even an intermediate trait.

i see experienced keepers post stuff like "caresheets are irrelevant" "don't read a book, listen to your monitor" etc.

but this is actually BAD advice for a beginner. they don't know what the hell you are talking about. they don't understand soils, temps, gradients, nutrition, they don't have years of monitor experience, or even just years of reading the forum, to differentiate the good from the bad.

i try to have good caresheets that address the basics. i want folks to have the best possible start with their animal. certainly there is enough HORRIBLE material out there, i have to battle to get our good material to offset the bad.

i want to see ambient temps in the mid 80's, i want to see basking temps 120-130 , i want to see a good substrate, and i want to see rodents and insects as the base of the diet.

after providing the basic info, i touch on theory, strategy, and reading your animal, i try to get more into that in our FAQ. but i know from direct feedback that it still goes over most keeper's heads. those advanced ideas are like a foreign language, it is complete gibberish to the keeper with the new Savannah and the 90F ("i guess" hotspot.

and your original post, FR, is the same foreign language gibberish to most.

it is great that there are different levels of experience in the forum, i think that is a positive. i do wish beginners would stop answering questions with misunderstood good will confusion, but that has always been there : )

my point is that there are many different levels of understanding, actual comprehension, and WANTING folks to read animals properly, to make all the right choices, provide all the right tools, that is a much different thing than actually seeing folks comprehend such : )

i would guess 80% of the forum doesn't have the experience base to read the animals properly, and honestly, i am not all that higher than the 80%. there are plently of times when common sense and obvious needs escape me, luckily we have a team here at PE, and it is harder for ALL of us to miss things : )

the audience at varanus.net may be more technical, and able to understand more theory and application, but here at this forum, it has to be the basics, again and again.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I know you business depends a lot our your site. And your caresheets are a big part of your website.

But sadly, the ability to understand the animals is the focus and THE context and is far more important then a caresheet. Maybe you should include this.

Simple concepts like, thinking or making decisions based on how the animal reacts are indeed the most important part of husbandry. So teach that as well.

Many folks want to think I look down on them. But sadly I don't. I give all of them credit that they have the ability to learn a caresheet in what 3 minutes. Don't you think you can remember a caresheet in 3 minutes. Then I surely give them credit they have the ability to move on and learn whats really important(the monitor). They should be aware they have to read their charges from day one.

With that understood, Now don't you think people should spend more then 3 minutes learning. They should be taught that a caresheet is not the end, but a simple begining? I think so Robyn and I think your the one to do it.

Yes, I do expect that beginers should start of the right foot and learn to "read" the animals. Learning to read the monitors is key. Therefore its for beginers to learn.

For instance a caresheet can never tell you when a female is cycling or when a monitor is growing short and fat instead of growing long(conditions cause this, even the ones listed in caresheets) OR when a individual is not acting right. These things and much much more are learned from "watching the actual animal".

Besides, there area a million caresheets, which one are beginers suppose to believe. There is always, only one individual monitor.

So yes, watching/observing the animal should be taught as the very first paragraph on all caresheets. It should be the begining of learning, not the end.

Oh by the way, heres a thought for you. I would be far easier for people to learn to read monitors(all reptiles) if they understand that what they read(books, caresheets, etc) is NOT difinitive, but only a person or persons guess as to what a monitor is doing. A guess, no more.

It should be explained, without question, these guesses are wrong, wait, not wrong, JUST GUESSES or loose guides. Which makes what the monitor does more CORRECT, at all times. Monitors(the captive) do not lie or tell stories, or try to fool you, or practice any deception what so ever. They are simply being them and trying to exsist in the only ways they know how. Cheers and I hope I lite a fire so you can continue to do an excellent job.

those behaviors you speak of that should be taught to beginners. Help us to recognize when we are doing good and when we need to make some changes. What are some of the good behaviors and bad ones that you speak of? You like to write paragraphs and paragraphs on there being behaviors we need to recognize. Would you kindly spend some time and go into some specific behaviors in detail? Im sure it would be greatly appreciated. What better way is there to keep your monitor happy than knowing what to look for? Please. It's Christmas, if that helps. haha. (Hope everyone had a wonderful one by the way). thanks

Now you understand why most of the other monitor guys and academics do not like me. I understood what the templet was since before I had monitors. I have always let them tell me. I have always respect monitors for being monitors, not what I think they are suppose to be.

When I started, I only said, Lets see what you guys are. So I tested the limits and potentials.

Since I did that, I recieved "different" results, which of course upset so many people. Cheers and Happy holidays

Frank to be honest I got lost in your post, truly I didn’t understand most of it, you seem to know exactly what I missed, why don’t you tell me?

Rob says you nailed on the head, what is it exactly you nailed?
I have no idea what templet means, and a sure can’t distinguish what’s different from what I said and what you preach.
Pleas tell me you know I never get upset about anything, I just get annoyed no more!

Merry Christmas

Wow that really puts things in a better light for me. But still we need some sort of base to work from right.

Yea, a good base is common sense. Of course if a caresheet is somewhat accurate, many are not, then its OK for a guide to get you started.

For instance if you use the current recomentations. Many of which originated with me. Well, I can keep monitors healthy and live a very long life, with no lites, no hot spots, and substrate and in a small cage. Which are all contrary to what is recomended. All the while many of you have having all sorts of problems using one or all of the zillion caresheet information. Whats up with that????????

Of course keeping in the way i mentioned can work to keep them healthy(well exsisting well) but surely sucks for the poor monitor.

So why can I keep them so poorly and have better results then those following caresheets?

Also I think the world of Chad and Robyn, but they have had that dang caresheet up for many years, and it has not had any long term effect of the overall success of captive monitors. So how good can that be?

The reason is more basic, folks are taught to believe words, trouble is words do not work on animals.

You do understand words are for people. tangable actions are for animals. You got to do something, not read something.

With that in mind, the first thing to learn is how to read the results of tangable actions(your work) then of course words from caresheets may or may not be of benefit. It really depends on the situation. Cheers