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Or is the community itself far too disparate? I keep thinking that the proposals so often being put forth in communities around the country regarding bans,are created by non-herp, seemingly ill informed individuals, or groups of individuals, who simply take time to put words to page and then make it available to legislators. Consequently, the herp community is consistently on defense, left only with the possibility of being heard in public hearings, or grievances via their representatives instead of being able to propose an alternate set of well thought out guidelines that would be acceptable to herpers - and those that would have no reptiles or 'exotics' at all. Members of animal rights, or animal advocacy groups have found common ground. Why can't we?

Didn't the NRACC spring to life from this board, or am I mistaken?

I find myself wondering if there exists a fundamental conflict between the business of reptiles versus the keeping of reptiles.

IMO, The best way to try and accomplish anything like this would be to try and get as many herp societies and rescues into one group. Many of them already have the respect of many in their respective communities. Having people like this pooling their thoughts and ideas can only help the herp community. Rather than having each consistently fighting their own battles, they could join together, as many exotics orgs have. You would also have a wider base to fight groups like HSUS. And a greater base for ideas. Some societies main purpose is the hobby, others concentrate more on preservation and others on education, some on combos of these. If we could somehow pool these "different" groups into one, We may have a fighting chance.
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Ace

I'd like to think we could but... Reptiles (snakes especially) scare a lot of people. The majority of the people in this country are afraid of them and because they aren't soft and furry, most people won't fight for their right to keep them. New laws pertaining to ownership of reptiles are never discussed in any forum, just passed and put on the books without anybody knowing about them. Most of the laws don't even make much sense, like Denver Colorado where it's illegal to keep a snake over 10' but they'll still sell and people will buy baby burmese and retics all day long. It's a battle we'll lose eventually because PETA and other organizations will continue to fight against us because the animals are kept as "pets". So really, we have the majority of the country, the government, US fish and wildlife, and Animal Rights activists all against us for what we enjoy. I'm a member of all the Herp societies and groups in the Kansas City & Missouri areas but not enough people are. A few of us against the entire state is a lost cause. A few more against a nation is futile. Any time people ask me about what I enjoy doing and I try to talk about my snakes, they look at me like I'm the neighborhood rapist and serial killer. Oh and just wait until you say something about it to some religious zealot who goes off about snakes being evil and then wants to spout scripture at you all night because she thinks you've been possessed by the devil. Basically, to many people are afraid of reptiles to make a case for them. Fear over-rides common sense.

Any so called religious zealot who spouts off about snakes being evil, doesn't understand what they have been reading in the bible. Next time you run across someone like that, tell them blasphemy is a sin. By the way a close friend of mine who's been keeping snakes for quite some time is also a pastor at a baptist church.

I have been in the Reptile buisness going on 15 years and I can honestly say times are getting rough. With all the new laws being inacted now is the time to ban togather. I have seen many Reptile organizations come and go and it scares me that we all can't come togather to save ourselves.

I have been searching the internet for the last couple of months and have only seen one organization that seems to have the organazation we need and that is PIJAC. If we all can join for a few bucks we can work with them to help us. This is a group recognised by the CDC and a few government agencies, this is the kind of thing we need, plus it is well established in the pet trade already so we don't really have to keep wondering if they will be there in 2 months.

It takes the effort of everybody to help in the fight we are in, yes it is a fight, You may not see it happening where you are at but here on the east side of the country state by state are enacting new laws to supress our herp keeping rights. It is just a matter of time before it happens in your neighborhood.

Please take the time to check out the site and pass it along to everyone you know and explain to them why it is important to join. HSUS and Peta are organised and it is time for us to get the ball rolling and win this fight. It would be a shame to see everyones Ball Pythons being confinscated because we sat around with our thumbs up our butts.

Steve

Posted by: klorentz at Sat Aug 2 22:06:26 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I am not totally against it but they should be more in the publics eye . Remember not everyone has a comp or knows about PIJAC . Also Telling people about what they have done . This could help in gaining support . Some people do get anoid ( and skeptical ) getting news second hand instead of from the source its self .

Kevin

And here is one other post from the same thread .

RE: I agree, we should all support PIJAC, Kevin is right...

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Posted by: mchambers at Sun Aug 3 09:36:23 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

PIJAC is not yet mainstream enough for a lot of the industry and or hobbyist to know about. Grant you that they have been around for many years but I still see many small pet stores and many herp enthusiast that doesn't know about PIJAC. For many years they were just for the business portion of the animal industry whether it was retail or wholesale then they gave a chance for companies to fit in. Companies and breeders I should say. I had heard that individials can now join.

Chambo
NAROA

On some of this thought, it's to late ( maybe ? in some places ? ). While everything organized sounds good, how many of the private keepers that keeps only a couple of corn snakes, a couple of ball pythons, a couple of iguanas going be be included on ANY national alliance. Think they know what is going on ? They are non-knowing. What would be any bodies guess on the several reptiles ( meaning a very small number of animals ) kept by what % of the population compared to the % of people like you and me > ? keeping a large numbers of animals ? As a reptle keeper for OVER 40 years, I see it going downhill in battles of rights to keep. Keep in mind that in my own state and some townships, there were laws passed that didn't even make it to the news media or any other device of alerting the reptile comunity. Talk about reptile societies ? There all a few, like one of this state, that promotes the non-keeping of reptiles or just doesn't agree with the keeping. Also of the state that I live in, the reptile socities are almost all in the eastern third of the state and my state is approx. 400 miles wide. There are none in the western part of the state. It's downright hard to get some messeges across this state with bans and so fourth. In my own township of 800 people there are about 6 families keeping reptiles and they could give a rats behind on any laws or bans.

Chambo

I find it disappointing that in the last decade it appears that at least 3 such efforts for organizations dealing with legality and ownership issues have failed.

I have taken a look at the PIJAC site and I am considering joining. At the very least it is a step, and showing support for an organization that does monitor ongoing issues in the industry. It is unclear however, what direct impact they can, or have had in the past with regard to herp legislation. As far as a clearing house and legislative monitoring body, I cannot argue with their efficiency.(At least as demonstrated by searching for issues on their site)

My greatest concern is the kind of situation other responders have pointed to. Herp owners who are unaware of, or worse, will completely ignore any legislation anyway - only succeed in making the community appear in the light that opponents wish to paint it; a bunch of flakes that like to keep reptiles but don't actually know how to care for them, and don't respect the law.

In reading some of the press and associated articles pertaining to the Ohio raids, it seemed that EVERYONE was painted with the descriptive brush of wierdo or lawbreaker. I saw no flattering accounts of any of the interviewees that kept reptiles.

I sincerely hope that the Chicago legislation gets derailed. But, unless an informed and cooperative association between the legislators, DFW, and local herp organizations can propose a reasonable compromise - herp opponents will simply be defending another ban that the anti-pet folks will try to slide under the door.

"Flake" factor is right. When was the last time a reptile owner was shown in a positive light on television? I've NEVER seen it. Even on shows on Discovery or Animal Planet they only show someone who lives in, shall we say, a VERY poor environment (trailer with trash EVERYWHERE)with lots of snakes in cramped cages and the owners, Bubba and Bessie who are barely speaking what might be called English. I watch shows like this and Animal Precinct and I hate to see the way people treat animals and I'm almost to the point where I think people should have to apply for permits for animals and prove that they have a proper environment for the desired animal. I believe that would infringe on peoples rights though and I wouldn't support it now because I know to many people whose care for their animals goes WAY above and beyond what they "need". These are the people we need to see on TV and not the other. Most people don't know people like I do and assume that every reptile or snake owner is trashy. We need to do something to portray reptiles in a positive light. Steve Irwin, Jeff Corwin and Mark O'shea try but they tend to lean towards venemous species which only helps to frighten people who already think all snakes are poisonous. (I actually had someone who asked how I could own a venemous species like my Yellow Anaconda...LOL). I would love to start a pet show on Animal Planet dedicated to Reptiles and their care and show how great they really are and do it in a learning environment rather then a field environment. Showing how reptiles can be kept at home in a clean, safe and asthetically pleasing way.

Alberta has fairly constricting but overall sensible laws governing herp keeping (don't get me wrong, they're not perfect).
The responses in this forum generally depict a negetive view on the future of our hobby. There are two major herp clubs in this large province, and specifically the Edmonton club has brought a very positive view to the public via news spotlights and educational shows.
Clubs and societies that have the attitude of constant defense will meet a public/government seeing a need to fight.
By keeping a positive position in our locales, we put ourselves in the position for consultation when regulations are discussed.

Ian

If anyone attended the NRBA this weekend, or, any large show throughout the country, you can see for yourself the difficulty true herp hobbyists have with the non-herp oriented public and the media.

As a reptile rehabilitator, I walk a fine line between the herp industry, the conservationists, and herp hobbyists - three very distinct and very disparate groups. At the far fringes are the "I should be able to sell whatever I want to whomever I want," and the "No one should own any venomous, large pythonids, or wild-caught animals." Trying to interact within these two fringes can be very stressful and difficult. Even getting some of the more moderate individuals/groups to work together can be a challenge (witness TSA and Tortoise Trust). Even dealers can be at odds over business and profit.

There were many cameras at Daytona this weekend, and they often focused not on the professional herpetologist, but the folks in leather with punk hairstyles and tatoos. Should everyone be in suits and ties when they go to these shows? No, of course not. But until hobbyists conduct themselves professionally and present the kind of unified front to the public that we want, the public will continue to look at herpers as freaks.

As far as the illegal dealings - many legitimate herpers complained on the forums about some of the questionable activities that we observed; yet, many were prohibited from posting publicly and others were censored for making their opinions known publicly. Even when we attempt to police ourselves and question the activities of unscrupulous dealers, we are prohibited from voicing those opinions and making our observations public. The final outcome is when law enforcement takes notice and acts against those within the industry who prefer money over conservation.

As a rehabber, I am often taken to task for deriding dealers for selling RES turtles for $2.00 and $29.00 Burmese pythons and $40 Sulcata tortoises to unsuspecting or uninformed individuals. However, many dealers do not seem to care about the eventual outcome of their "sell-em-all" approach to sales; zoos, shelters, humane societies and rescues end up cleaning up their mess and they give groups like HSUS and PETA plenty of fodder to enact legislation.

Until hobbyists, businessmen, and conservation groups get together, find a common ground for cooperation and present a united front, those who truly enjoy keeping herps will be forever at the mercy of lawmakers and the misinformed public.

Dennis Desmond
Northern Virginia Reptile Rescue

Northern Virginia Reptile Rescue

Sad but true Dennis . And it seems the greater majority of the press likes to use the Daytona show to find the bad apples among us . We must all make an effort to get along and try our best to make improvments before its to late .

Kevin
NAROA

The American Federation of Herpetoculturists had an awesome legislative packet, which I managed to get a copy of, but which I ufortunately no loger have.
It gave an outline for sensible by-laws for municipalities to use as a template for legislation.
It detailed proper husbandry protocols for large constrictors and monitor lizards, and stressed individual accountability of owners for any damage done by their animals.

In other words, it made complete and total sense!

Simon

This sounds very cool. I suggest someone who has a copy posts it, gets general ideas on any revisions or ways to make it up to date, and as a group we should make it available to local gov't's around the US and Canada.
Ian

I doubt anything will happen, but just for the sake of doing it, I sent Discovery an email regarding this issue to see if they would do a show on it to help bring it to the public eye. If (and that's a big IF) I get a response, I will let y'all know!