Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got 2.5 Vaillanti in about 2-3 weeks ago. They were fresh imports with good wieght on them. Some ate for me all ready but some have not. Well all of sudden I've had 3 die (one that ate) in a matter of 2 days. They were very active the days before and then dead in the morning. They are being kept at around 73 degrees on damp sphagnum moss. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!
Thanks
Carl

Carl:
I'm sorry to say that what's happening to your snakes is very familiar to anyone who has purchased wild caught chinese snake species. Even apparently healthy looking animals with good flesh on them and even accepting food are effected. The cause is variously associated with poor husbandry after capture by the hunters and other chinese merchants in the food market circuit, the result of the natural parasite loads found in these snakes in China or a combination of these two. Some people say to treat the snakes on arrival with panacur and flagyl and skip feeding them until they settle in. Others say to rehydrate them and leave them over winter in the cold to allow them to acclimate. Others say skip the meds and just start keeping them in a normal mandarin enclosure (cool temps, high moisture and plenty of hides). Honestly I've personally lost most of the wild caughts I've bought.

Good luck
John

>>I got 2.5 Vaillanti in about 2-3 weeks ago. They were fresh imports with good wieght on them. Some ate for me all ready but some have not. Well all of sudden I've had 3 die (one that ate) in a matter of 2 days. They were very active the days before and then dead in the morning. They are being kept at around 73 degrees on damp sphagnum moss. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!
>>Thanks
>>Carl

What John says if very true, and worse yet, is that all too often these WC Asian animals introduce pathogens into your collection that can be disasterous to North American animals. Heavy disinfecting and isolation is the next course.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Well I am not suprised, this animal has about a 95% mortality rate when W/C. I have raised W/C mandarins and mollens, and it is the same formula, damp moss, lower temps but I have also found that if kept in a dark closet for a few months they do better. Yours may have been parasite ridden and even with good weight may still have been dehydrated, my advice is to stay away for W/C animals especially ones this delicate. good luck.

Thank you all for the info. The others that are left seem to be doing fine. We disinfect everything with Chlorohexidine and bleach. We are dosing everyone with panacur and flagyl this week and bringing their temp down to 65-68 for about 3 weeks. Hopefully we won't lose anymore. Take care and Happy New Year.
Carl

Carl,
Sorry to hear about your loss. I am curious about how much you paid and where you got them. If you don't want to post an answer to those two questions feel free to send me an email. I am very interested in what is going on with the asian elaphe. I have been to china and seen these animals at the food markets. When I lived in Sweden I imported over 100 Mandarin and every single one died. They cost me about 50 dollars for the lot then the shipping. I found them all a food market and there were around 1000 or more for sale from one guy and there were even more than that selling them!!
Thanks,
Barry

I paid $210 each for them. I felt it was worth the risk as CB animals go for $500-$1000 each. I knew what I was getting into because of the WC situation. I was actually surprised at how nice they looked. A lot of WC animals that come in look skinny and dehydrated but these guys looked great. If you put them next to CB animals you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I got them from Xtreme Reptiles. I don't blame them what so ever for the death as I knew the risk when I was buying them. I was just stunned to have this kind of sudden death. The rest seem ok so I have my fingers crossed. Thanks
Carl

It might be worthwhile to have a necropsy done on at least one of the deceased. It might give you a heads up on anything that could potentially threaten your other snakes. I had a similar issue with some W/C Mandarins.

I've never had any of these type rat snakes, but I would like to add that if they are over-loaded with parasites (as many wild-caught reptiles are irregardless of where they come from) then it can be too stressful on them to worm/deparasitize all at once. Dead worms can create too much of a toxin load for the liver, and kidneys. It's better to give a half dose first to clear out larva, then a larger dose a few weeks later....I think panacur is safe on these, and I actually use Valbazen (albendazole) because it gets more types of worms. Often if an animal is fine then dies suddenly after it eats then it is a strain of Salmonella. Medication would have to be hit and miss unless it's cultured and tested for drug sensitivity...I would try cephalexin first while testing if it were me (largely because it's bacteriocidal instead of bacteriostatic, and gets a wide spectrum of pathogens---usually there's other infections/"mouth rot" bacteria as sympathetic infections that if wiped out then they can survive over). If Salmonella, it's debatable if they can be "cured" or just become "carriers" and then offspring might be hatched with it even. And, almost all reptiles benefit tremendously from some exposure to natural sunlight. I've saw iguanas that wouldn't open their eyes completely recover when placed outside in a screen mesh cage (also it's not as stressful to wildcaughts if at least they think they're wild----nonfeeding lizards will often eat if placed between the glass and screen of a window, so they think they're on the outside looking in). I also try very small meals the first few times something eats just to let the gut get used to working again and get bacteria/normal flora back up to proper levels.

What your going through is acute renal failure. I'm almost 100% sure they were dehydrated/dehydrating while waiting for export. Some importers do get them rehydrated but usually it's too late for most of the fragile species, and most die within a week or so. Even though they look perfect on the outside, on the inside thier Kidneys are like raisins compared to a normal healthy kidney. They can't process food or water and soon die. I would suggest not trying to feed any of them for 6-8 weeks ( or longer ) and let thier Kidneys try to heal/compensate. Hopefully you won't lose anymore, though the ones that are alive should be over the first of many humps in the acclimation process. I wouldn't even consider de-worming, let them cycle any possible parasites out themselves.

Thank you for the help, I really appreciate it. I've brought their temps down to 68 degrees with very wet sphagum moss at one end and the other end is dry with the water dish. The rest seem to be doing good, but I know I'm not out of the woods yet. I will not feed them for a month as I've had them 3 weeks all ready. Some have gone go to the bathroom and it has a lot of white (cottage cheese) looking material with clear mucus(sp). No fecal material. It doesn't even resemble urates.

Possible to just be renal failure from poor treatment/dehydration, I suppose. 'Thought I should add that because of toxins in our city drinking water from our municipality that passes testing for human consumption, but caused illnesses in our animals, we only use bottled purified water for our animals now. There's enough chlorine in most water to kill newly hatched quails! Montane species are especially sensitive to toxins, so I'd use purified water, and not tap water.