Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi,i bought 2 cb juveniles uros here in the uk last year,they are doing well,but i am not sure on there id,they were sold to me as u.acanthinurus,but they dont look like my other pair of
acanthinurus,i am going to try and attach some pictures so hopefully that will help.I have tried counting the tail worls but i am partially sited,so maybe one of you guys/girls will help me out!

According to this set of pictures, my guess is that it's probably a Mali, but don't take it for sure. Im saying this because i have a mali and the patterns/colors are similar

good luck, hope i helped

To me they look like U. acanthinura nigriventris.

Regards

Ingo

It is difficult to give you a definite with photos at this age but everything I see tends to follow with the label they were sold under- Uromastyx acanthinura nigriventris.

The animal in your photo does not appear to follow the pattern that I have seen with the other subspecies- Uromastyx acanthinura acanthinura but I only have a handful of this subspecies for comparison. Someone like Doug Dix who has handled more U a acanthinura and U a nigriventris will be more reliable if you are looking for more details on the particular subspecies.

Thanks everybody for your advice,i'm going to er on them being acanthinura nigriventris,my next question...are they sexable at this size ? if any one is willing to give me a guess, what parts/views of the body would give you most help?i am more than happy to take a few snaps of the relevant areas,thanks in advance
Sinbad

It's good to see nice photos for trying to ID a Uro for a change. I get sent tons of these and most are too blurry for me to see enough detail!

This is almost surely the normal Moroccan (U. a. nigroventris). Mali's at this age usually still have a more open occelated pattern or clean solid dots rather than the oblong checkerboard back. Algerians (U. a. acanthinuris)tend to have a pattern of dashes down the center of the back - to the point that in many individuals it looks like a broken spinal stripe. Otherwise they look like a 50/50 hybrid between Moroccan and Mali's in pattern.

Overall, Algerians look more like Mali hatchlngs than like Moroccan hathclings and even though Algerians are listed as a subspecies of acanthinuris, they are much easier to confuse with Mali's as juveniles. Interestingly, Algerians tend to be sexually dimorphic in pattern as well as color, unlike either Mali's or Moroccans. An ocellated pattern is the rule for males while females are almost always predominately freckled w/ minimal ocellations.

On a side note, my understanding is that wild collected Mali's are illegal in England and much of Europe. Have you found them to be rare over there? Usually I just hear of Moroccans and to a lesser degree Sudanese or Benti from people contacting me from England.

Doug

Thanks for your help Doug.The most commonly seen and bred uro in the uk would be U.ornata,followed by U.a.nigroventris and then U.a.acanthinurus,but never in any large amounts. wild caught animals of these species are a pretty rare occurance now days.
We do get the occasional w/c occelatus and i today saw on a dealers list for the first time for many years w/c disparus,
Malis turn up occasionally but i havent seen any imports for over a year now,but the odd c/b baby is appearing for sale.
I hope there is enough animals in uk collections to breed and supply demand,prices are pretty high and plenty of people want them. c/b baby nigroventris sell for £120.00 GBP and baby ornata
up to £150.00 GBP.how does this compare with Us prices ?
Sinbad

I can't recall the exchange rate - USD to pounds, but the common retail price for ornata is around $200 USD for hatchlings (more for full adults). True Moroccans (U. a. nigroventris) are around $175 for hatchlings and closer to $300 for fully colored adults. Moroccans are rarer here than Ornates. The poorer hatchling colors make them cheaper as hatchlings but often more expensive as adults verses the average Ornate.

U a. acanthinura just came into the US for the first time last year and are fairly rare. How common is the acanthinurus subspecies by you? Are the dispar you see currently advertized Mali's or Bandeds? I thought Mali was a banned trading country with England (kind of like Sudan with the U.S.). Has this changed?

Years ago we used to get Moroccan hatchlings from England but none have been offered in probably 6-8 years it seems.

Doug

Acanthinura are not that common really(also remember how small the uk reptile scene is nowdays!)those that have appeared here are from mainland Europe,the 'real country of origin' is unknown.
But i belive they come into the EEC as captive farmed,once in Europe paper work is no longer needed (unless you intend to re export from the union)so it is difficult to tell where they really come from.
The Dispar are supposedly Bandeds,strangley they are being offered for sale by a parrot importer,not a reptile dealer.
He is located quite a ditance from me,shame as i would like to see /buy but its not something i would do ,with out seeing the animals in the flesh.
I to remember the glut of Moroccan hatchlings in the late 90's,
did you by any chance buy them from Mike Linley?

That name is familar but I can't recall any more who it was. There were two people sending over Uros - almost exclusively small Moroccans. I recall Glades Reptile buying most of them then myself, Dunn, and a small dealer in California took many of the others. The guy stopped shipping in the late 90's. The next year a few came in from Japan then those stoppped as well. No new Moroccans have come into the US since then (although US F&W say otherwise but they confuse dispar w/ acanthinurus in their paperwork).

I heard through the grape vine someone over there had been getting acanthinurus from Morocco, keeping them in a basement or greenhouses then exporting them as CB. I thought he got busted in the mid 90's but I could have my time frame off. Since about 2000 though people from England have been asking me for stock so I get the impression there are fewer Moroccans in England than there use to be.

Supposedly Spain was a source for Ocellateds/Ornates for a while but I've not heard anything leaving there in awhile either. Now it's mostly Germany/Ukraine (for CB Ornates/Indians) and they are sporatic as well.

It's hard from here to get a reliable feel for how Uromastyx breeding is doing overseas. I'm working on a book and am lacking current info on Europe/England so if you could supply anything relavant, I'd appreciate it. You can contact me directly at douglasdix@deerfernfarms.com If you could check on the import laws in England I'd apreciate it as well. I though it was mostly closed to WC except ocellateds/benti for some reason.

Thanks,

Doug

Doug

Have some usefull info for you,will mail you.
Sinbad