Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

I'm currently building a large (75 gallon) vivarium for my subadult black ratsnake. (I know, I know, this is the dart forum. But I figured you guys know more about viv building than anyone else!) The vivarium is set up with a 2" false bottom reservoir, and a "river" depressed area in the middle of the cage. I was hoping to use the river as a built-in soaking and drinking area, and keep it from being stagnant by using a water pump in the reservoir to keep things stirred.

As I was building this and adding substrate on top (a mix of coir, orchid fir bark, sand, and gravel), I suddenly realized that if the river/drinking area is connected to the rest of the false bottom reservoir, won't the drinking water contain runoff from any fertizilers in the soil, waste runoff, cleaning spray runoff, etc. etc.???

How do I make the reservoir safe for my snake to drink from and soak in, or am I making this over-complicated? I am now considering setting up a sump underneath the tank, filled with live plants and a carbon filter to circulate the water and keep it clean.

Thanks for any suggestions!
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron)
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 rescued stray grey cat (Ghost)
2.1 rescued feral tabby kittens (Big Boy, Frosty, and Starlet)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.0 Leucistic Black Ratsnake (Houdini)
1.0 White-Lipped Python (Midas) - RIP, poor fella

We don't use soils with fertilizers or insecticides in dart tanks at all. The coir fiber and sand shouldn't contain any, so should work perfectly well for you. Neither do we use cleaning sprays. The only cleaning we do is wiping off the glass with vinegar water.

One thing you could do, is cover the entire false bottom division, including the indenture for the pump and water way with weed cloth to filter out the fine detritus. Then put your soil and the gravel or whatever you are going to have in the waterway on top of this. This will filter out a lot of the fine debris. You can suck up the water in the pond and have the outlet tubing go to another area for circulation.

Here's what I would REALLY do, if it were my project, however: Use Coco-Tek hydroponic grow slabs. These are 3X6"36 inches long and cut them to fit tightly together in the bottom of your cage. Then cut out any pond or water areas you want, as well as for the pump. Have the pump circulate the water from one side to the other. The Grow Slabs make an excellent filter and do not deteriorate. They are coarsely woven cocoanut fiber stiffened with latex, I believe. You can use the weed cloth between the soil and slabs if you want, as this provides finer filtration of the soil detritus. Then you could put a thin layer of gravel between the sides and the slabs around the edges and add some live Java moss here down into the water level. Your snake will probably drag some of the soil mixture down into the pond. We don't have much problem with that with darts, but some dirt will get into it one way or another. Growing Java in the pond might also help with this. It's easy to do periodic water changes if you think you need them. The water will be somewhat brown in any event, mostly due to tannins from the coir. Just siphon off the water from one corner with a length of airline tubing, starting the process with a 60cc cannula vet syringe you can probably purchase at someplace like Cal Ranch or other veterinary supply. Or you can use a turkey baster and suck up the debris and water from the pond. It's a bit more tedious and time consuming, but it works well.

Of course, if it is worth your while, you can also set up a cannister filter outside the tank. I'm planning on using this system with a 180 gallon paludarium I'm planning, but this will have some relatively deep water for fish, as well as the land area for the frogs. I'm not sure how a cannister filter would work with only 2-3 inches of water.

Are you planning to plant the tank with live plants, or will the snake pretty much squash those? Live plants are the mainstay of our biologically recycling dart vivariums, but darts are small and light and don't mess up most plants.

Be sure to let us know what you do and how it works for you.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

A couple more photos of using Coco-Tek and weed cloth for a false bottom.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

These aren't in order, but here's another tank that has a Coco-Tek false bottom.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Thanks for the info on the coco-tek boards! Your vivariums are beautiful! I already have the eggcrate false bottom installed and one half of the viv furnished with soil, logs, and false plants, however, so tearing it apart now to change it would be counter-productive. However, I will definitely keep your method in mind for my next project.

The vivarium does have live plants. After reading Phillipe de Vosjoli's book "The Art of Keeping Snakes", I started reading up on snake vivs, and decided that the best thing to do is just experiment.

Black ratsnakes are quite slender, and in my experience, are extremely adept climbers. They are also semiarboreal, so are less likely to mindlessly plow down everything in their path. After observing him in a more sterile cage environment for a year now (fake plants, fake logs, etc.), I've noticed that he very carefully picks his way around the cage, and doesn't really disturb things much. Also, because he is so lightweight, I don't think squashing will be as much of an issue compared with the bigger boas and pythons. Right now, I have lemon button fern, rabbit's foot fern, and a couple of unidentified small shrubs (might be a ficus or pothos plant). The tank will not be heavily planted, but just enough that the snake can find cover under the leaves, and enough to give the vivarium a moisture boost. I'm also thinking of planting some small patches of Java fern and Java moss along the creekbed as well.

In any case, thank you for the reply regarding the lack of fertilizers and cleaning sprays in vivariums. I had noticed other reptile vivarium keepers using Virosan and Healthy Habitat sprays on a weekly basis, but wasn't sure if this is a typical practice or not. (Admittedly, I was a bit surprised when I read that people were spraying these things at first.) I'll avoid these chemicals as I originally planned, and do partial water changes on the water weekly or as-needed. I have lots of experience with both fresh and saltwater aquariums, so water maintenance is nothing new here.
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo:

1.0 Husband (Byron)
0.1 black cat (Shade)
0.1 rescued stray grey cat (Ghost)
2.1 rescued feral tabby kittens (Big Boy, Frosty, and Starlet)
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Zia)
1.0 Leucistic Black Ratsnake (Houdini)
1.0 White-Lipped Python (Midas) - RIP, poor fella

I don't know what to advise you about the Virosan, etc., because we don't use anything like this with the dart frogs. If they are normally used with snakes, you might consider using them. I don't think they will harm the plants, but I'm not sure about them building up in the water over time. You might also consider using Ficus pumilia quercifolius as a ground cover if the soil stays fairly damp. This is a very nice little compact vine with tiny oak-shaped leaves. You can just scatter cuttings of it around, and they will root and fill in. It will also climb branches. It may take a while to get started, but once it does, it's a very nice, rather tough cover, that you can make branch out by snipping the stems in two here and there near the leaves. It will put out two new shoots from each snip and you can train them in different directions. You can probably find this at Black Jungle, or if you have problems finding it, contact me.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
6 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
7 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
6 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
6 P. terribilis mint and organe
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus
2 P. lugubris

Please take no offense to this--these are just suggestions to help you think--but make sure that there is a definite dry area for your snake to be on. Too moist of a substrate can cause moisture blisters and scale infections if they don't have the chance to dry out. Also I don't know what size your snake is, but my friend has an albino black ratsnake that is 7 feet long and about 3 inches in diameter. I can just forsee your plants getting fairly trampled fairly quickly--especially if you are planning on feeding inside his cage. Those poor little plants wouldn't stand a chance in the path of a writhing ratsnake and his food! I'm not saying don't do it...I love to see animals in naturalistic vivaria--just some thoughts for you. Good luck.

Luke.