Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I'm not a regular on this forum (I'm more the serpent type) but I work for a petstore that carries beardies, and visit every so often to learn a bit about them.

We normally don't have issues with our beardies, but one in particular suddenly stopped eating a few weeks ago. He was fine before, eating well, healthy, perfectly normal. I figure he must have been getting his moisture from his food (crickets, greens and mealworms offered) because once he stopped eating, he started getting dehydrated unless someone took the time to soak him or drip water on his nose.

We sent him to the vet, and they sent him back to us with essentially a big question mark - they found nothing wrong with him. He's been prescribed a low concentration antibiotic (baytril) to be taken orally once a day, and the vet also told me to mix a little bit of cat food with some water and feed that to him through a syringe. Made sense to me, sorta; I've seen my local reptile store using cat food for their meat eating lizards, not necessarily for their beardies, but they use it. However, our new assistant manager breeds beardies, and says the cat food has a too high ash content, which will ruin the beardie's liver. The food being used is prescription a/d science diet, a very uniform sort of food that makes me feel sad for the poor cats who eat it.
The beardie was force-fed (sorta, the mixture was squeezed out on the end of his nose and he licked it up much like he would if I dripped water on his nose) for several days while at the vet, and when he came back, I fed him some of the mixture. After eating it, he seemed noticeably more perked up, but that could have been because I gave him the opportunity for a good long drink - the vet said they didn't know if he'd been drinking out of his bowl, so I figured they probably hadn't tried soaking or dripping water on his nose.

He's set up in our back room in a 15 gallon (the largest we're able to use), with a heat lamp , shallow water bowl, hidey log, and branch that slants up under the lamp within a couple inches. The temperatures are between 100 and 110 under the lamp, depending on if the morning person turned the heat on or off, and on the cool side about 70. Unfortunately this is the best I have to work with; it's the petstore's dragon, not mine, so I have to use what's available at work. Don't get me started >_<

Alright, there's my horribly long and detailed post about what's going on with this guy. Any and all suggestions would be appreciated, as at this point I'm at a loss. Thanks in advance!

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"The problem with America is stupidity. Now, I'm not saying we use capital punishment, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

One thing you forgot to mention is how old or large the Dragon is. This is Brumation time of year. I really don't agree with the force feeding. My vet is a member of the Association of reptile and amphibian Veteranarians but unfortunately sometimes doesn't know as much as I do about BD's. Just too many animals for them to learn about I guess to be an expert on all. I've read that force feeding a Dragon trying to brumate is very dangerous.

Does he have a place to hide or dig in? Does he prefer the warm or cool end of the tank? What part of the country are you in?

He may also be under stress from all of the noise etc. from the other animals.

Really needs a home soon! Pet stores hold on to animals too long is less than desireable conditions.

Steve

Sorry bout that, he's about four or five inches, including the tail, so not very big. He does have a place to hide, well, in the back he does. On the sales floor the only place he can go is under the basking branch. Heaven forbid the customers should be unable to see the critters. In the back though he's got a shallow water bowl, hidey log, and basking branch.

The "force" part of the force feeding is being used very loosely here. I don't know about how the vet did it (my faith in the vet we have to use is not very great) but when I fed him I just dropped the mixture slowly on his nose and he licked it up. My mix was at least half water; my worries are more about how he seems to keep drying up than him not eating.

He seemed to prefer hanging out on the lower part of the basking branch, underneath the light but not where it was hottest. I'll check him out again today when I go in.

I agree, the conditions in petstores are less than ideal and many animals stay there way too long. I've seen quite a few petstores worse than the one I work at. Don't forget the customers that come in, though. For the most part, I'd rather the animal stayed in our less-than-ideal conditions than go home with the average, ignorant customer. When someone's enthusiastic and has obviously done their homework (You can tell by what questions they ask), I have no qualms spending an hour with them picking out just the right one. But usually I end up convincing someone not to get a pet they know nothing about. I've seen some animal returns that make me want to cry.

Forgive the rant, Christmas time has not been particularly pleasant at the store. I don't know how many times I've had to tell people ball pythons aren't poisonous. >_<

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"The problem with America is stupidity. Now, I'm not saying we use capital punishment, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

The tank setup you have him in at the back of the store is fine for a 5" long baby dragon. However I have to agree the catfood isn't an ideal food to give them. I am sure you carry bearded dragon pellets of some sort in the store. Mushing that in water and feeding via syringe would be much better (especially the juvenile bearded dragon pellets).

One thing you didn't mention is whether you are providing UVB. Bearded dragons (heck, just about all diurnal lizards) require exposure to UVB rays to allow them to produce Vitamin D3 which they need to metabolize calcium from their diet. Without UVB, dragons can't make Vitamin D3 and thus, can't use the calcium in their diet. Also, you have to make sure they are getting sufficient calcium in their diet, specially for growing babies.

I am also concerned about the vet giving antibiotics to a dragon he didn't find anything wrong with. Antibiotics can be just as bad to give to dragons who don't need it, than not giving them antibiotics when they do need it. Antibiotics also tend to dehydrate animals, and can be hard on the liver especially if insufficient water isn't consumed by the dragon. (or maybe its hard on the kidneys, can't remember which organ now). Misting the cage walls, the dragon itself, often will ensure the dragon will drink the water, most don't drink out of standing water (ie in a water dish). A daily soak in a luke warm bath is also great.

The temperatures in the cage are fine, nor does it matter if the dragon spends all his time in the hottest part of the basking spot. In my dragons, I see them move in and out of the hot spot depending on the time of day, if they just ate etc. The important thing is to have a range of basking temps for the dragon to choose from (one in the 105-115F range, another in the 95-100 F range is good, or just a wide inclining branch under the basking spot works good, so the top is hotter than the half way point of the log and the bottom of the log. The dragon will move up and down the basking spot to the temp he instinctively knows is the one he needs.)

I don't recall you mentioning what sort of substrate is in the cage. For dragons as small as the one you are caring for at the pet store, should be on paper towel or other non particulate substrate (ie no calcium based sands, no gravel, no children's play sand, no crushed walnut, no wood based substrates). Impaction can happen very easily with young dragons and any loose substrate has a risk to cause this, especially in young small dragons.

Did the vet he was taken to do a fecal on him? If not get a fresh stool sample from the dragon and have it tested by the vet for parasites. (the stool sample can be refrigerated till brought to the vet but should be no more than 24 hours old if possible).

Offer small crickets (no bigger than the space between the dragon's eyes), small silkworms, butterworms or very young cockroaches may be consumed by the dragon. Avoid mealworms, large crickets and superworms. Too many of these can cause impaction due to the hard exoskeletons of these insects. Too large prey items can also cause rear leg paralysis, basically the food item winds up pressing against the spine).

Also, since you are providing a mild antibiotic, mix some probiotic into the dragon's water or the mush you are feeding it via syringe. Pediatlite (not sure on the spelling) can be used. This can be found at any drugstore. It is used for human children. Just dilute it with water and give your dragon. This helps restore the beneficial bacteria in the digestive track. Parazap can also be used (a google search for Parazap will reveal where you can order it). You prepare it as a 'tea' and give to the dragon over a week or two period. This helps the dragon to naturally resist parasites and promotes good gut flora as well. Electrolytes can be offered as well, especially if you feel the dragon is very dehydrated.
-----
PHLdyPayne

The suggestion about the pellets is an excellent one, when I go in next I'll switch him over to that.

The lights in the entire reptile bank need to be replaced, as it's been way over 6 months since the last time we put new bulbs in. He doesn't have a UVB light where he's set up in the back now, either, so I'll have to go in tomorrow and get that taken care of.

You're not the only one concerned about the vet. Unfortunately, I don't get a say in which vet we use, nor do I think they did a fecal when he was in there. Even more unfortunately, I highly doubt I'd be able to take a fecal sample in to get tested.

His daily soaks have seemed to work wonders. He's still not eating but with a heat gradient (the sales floor cages have one set temperature per cage, no gradient) and a place to hide he looks much better than he did on the sales floor.

In the back, I've got him on papertowel, but on the sales floor corporate dictates we must use calci-sand. Balancing animal needs with what corporate thinks they should have is incredibly frustrating.

Would waxworms be acceptable? There's no where around here where I can obtain silkworms or butterworms (I've tried for my own water dragons), and there's enough wild cockroaches running around the store I feel no desire to purchase some .

Weee, more illicit purchasing of needed supplies using the store's petty cash. Betadine, neosporin, sugar, q-tips, and now pedialyte. My managers are going to think I'm nuts. Hopefully it works though

Thank you very very much for your imput, it helps me out considerably.

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"The problem with America is stupidity. Now, I'm not saying we use capital punishment, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

normally waxworms are not a good food source for dragons, as they are high in fat, but since this dragon is not doing well, it could use what energy it can get. A few waxworms in addition to appropriate sized crickets may perk up his interest.

Fecals don't cost very much to do, typically $25 depending on the vet. You can always take a fecal to your herp vet instead of the pet store's preferred vet and see if he has parasites.

You shouldn't need any sugar or beratine? Or polysporin for that matter as both are topical antibiotics (use outside the dragon) so unless he has open sores, you don't need to use it.
-----
PHLdyPayne

There's no *good* reptile vet within a few hours drive of me. Most vets around here do dogs, cats, and small furry mammals, but there aren't too many reptile vets and even fewer who treat reptiles on a regular basis. I'm still on the hunt for a good reptile vet for my scaley animals, just in case. There just isn't anybody this far south in California that I've been able to find or hear about.

Sugar, Betadine, and neosporin are all things I've purchased and been reimbursed through petty cash for, although not necessarily for the dragon. I was just lamenting that I had to purchase such supplies "under the table", as it were.

The little guy is definately perking up some now that he's in the back, though, so maybe he wasn't warm enough on the floor.

Thanks again!

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"The problem with America is stupidity. Now, I'm not saying we use capital punishment, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

I brought my camera to work and took some pictures of the lil guy so there'd be a visual for everyone.

This pose just made me laugh.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

~jenny
-----
1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

"The problem with America is stupidity. Now, I'm not saying we use capital punishment, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

YOU have a sick dragon .

do you have a UVB light it needs one fast?? .7 if not .5 looks like you have a heating bask at 95 to 115

do you feed the right size ?? for the sick critter ...
meal worms are horrible they can not digest it
vitamins ... lighty on the crickets ?

i feel its very skinny it has no food in its stomach
from what i know they start breathing heavy and go into a sleep and just wont move

.. and it needs to see a reptile vet..
it might be dehidrated and needs some help fast
also stress could cuase this too .. if the other beared dragons are bigger then him/her

well good luck ... this lovely thing will need it ..

christina