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FR: What is your exp. with Timors

sidbarvin Dec 31, 2006 03:45 AM

FR,
It seems as if I have been fortunate enough to have stumbled upon one of the worlds leading Goanna Gurus. I've seen your name from time to time on another forum. Some of the guys on the other forum seem to have a considerable amount of knowledge in their own right and have been quite helpful, as have you, with many of my questions concerning my lizards. However they sometimes become engaged in these long drawn out arguments, complete with personal attacks about this heating and that lighting and so on. It can become quite monotonous and dounright tiresome reading through it at times, however they all seem to agree upon one thing; "Frank Reets" knows his stuff.
So, instead of playing in the back yard with the children I think it wiser to go and knock on the front door and ask to speak with the Master of the house. I've spoken to you of my Niles and my new Timor as well. I'm interested in starting a breeding project. The logistics of a Nile project are more than I want to deal with right now. I find this little Timor fascinating as well as entertaining and in truth I've fallen in love with the thing. Could you maybe point me in the right direction as to how to get started breeding these Timors. Do you know of any literature speciffic to this species? Any input at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Roger

Replies (10)

shay_ Dec 31, 2006 09:26 AM

quote
" However they sometimes become engaged in these long drawn out arguments, complete with personal attacks"

"tiresome reading through it at times"

hahaha, FR know his stuff but prepare yourself. he's the best a long drawn out arguments complete with personal attacks.

FR Dec 31, 2006 10:18 AM

That is how I respond to being attacked. Cheers

FR Dec 31, 2006 10:17 AM

It seems your interested in working with some monitors. But are not sure which ones. You have niles and like them, that means your easy to please, like me. I like them all. Then you get a Timor and like it. Eventually You will like some more then others, but still like them all.

I do not go by species specific information. In fact, I breed all monitors(over 20 species) the same way. With about the same husbandry and without question, the same base temps and humidity.

I do not go for that country thing. You know, this is and indo and that is an african, and this is a Ozzie monitor, and they are all different. To me, they are monitors and monitors are very very much the same. They are a strong family of lizards.

There major difference is size, and in that I treat them differently.

They all eat the same type prey, you know, anything they can get in their mouth, mostly anything along the crustation, insect, mammal, bird, rodent, fish, line. But not restricted to that. I have had about all species consume plants at some time or another. Again, size controls what they eat more then species.

You can breed all monitors in the same conditions, a very loose temp range from 60F to 130F, or up to 200F works for all. Of course the 200 is a bit of a waste of energy, but they will use it.(mainly smaller ones) All species need the same humidity. Not so dry that it dehydrates them, and very few species like to be wet or real humid all the time. But most all the species like to pick from fairly dry to very humid. With some species being semi aquatic. So again, if you offer places from 25% to 80% humidity, they will be fine.

Consider, I have never measured humdity in my life, so that is a guess, an educationed guess, but a guess just the same.

What makes monitors so hard, is what makes monitor keepers the biggist bunch of boneheads on the planet. Ok, not the biggist, but up there just the same, IS. Monitors are a very very very very behavioral group of lizards. And when I say behavior, I am not exactly sure what that means.

For instance many lizards have very refined behaviors, they are so refined that it then becomes very restrictive. Like green anoles live in small bushes, with particular favorites, like cycads, they like bushes over water. They do not like tree tops. And they do not like the ground, but of course will do both those things. Brown anoles, like the ground, but must have tree trunks and bushes to run into. These are examples of habitat behaviors. It makes them easy.

Well monitors have those, but not all that restrictive or very loose. But what they do have is very very keen social behaviors. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm this is where I leave the academic world as they are in firm believe that monitors are not social. So I asked them to come up with a word thats just like social, has the same meanings, and be different so it can be used on monitors. They have not yet.

I use the word social, because how it works for us is, its all about how they get along. To be social or become social. To get along with others and form bonds. This they do in such a keen way, I believe they are social specialists.

I allow them to get along and live in pairs and groups. With no more then that and the above base conditions, monitors throw eggs at you like pez despencers. And no, that is not an exzaggeration. They rarely have a single clutch in a year, in 17 years and over 20 species, I have never had any female lay one clutch. And up to 15 clutches in a year, with many species over 10. Normally three to five a year. I have not figured out how to stop that.

I do not hibernate them or photoperiod, or raincycle, or do anything other then tend to behavior. I also do not use UV or pay any attention to that in any way. And I only suppliment(add vitamins and calicum) to crickets and nothing else.

The major restricting factor is nesting. Monitors appear to be birds in this manner, If they have proper nesting(their perferred choice) They lay eggs like that old pez despencer. If they don't, they normally give an effort of some sort and die of reproductive failures. That is, they hold ovum, or eggs, and become sick or get tumors, or all such failures(reproductive complications). Of course the males do not, so you see lots of males around. They do not die from sperm retention, hahahahahahahahahaha. Lucky males.

So as you go on your search, you will find lots of males, but very few females. On the otherhand, in my years of hatching monitors, many thousands, I see a higher percentage of females. Good thing too.

Now why I mention all the above. Monitors are very easy to keep and breed(your stated goal) The base requirements are about the same, except for size. The nesting requirements are simple, ground nesters and then the others, Tree hollows, leaflitter nesters. Many species do both. Not so complicated as birds. BEHAVIOR, is what you look for and how you manage your monitors. They are a very visual group. You can tell what there doing, by seeing it. You cannot be blind(which most keepers are)(blind is refusing to take into consideration what you see).

Again back to you and your choice. Amoung behavior, some monitor species are very very shy, that is, doing all important behaviors out of sight, out of your sight. As with all behaviors, not all individuals are the same. There are always degrees. Again, How you gain insight to what your monitor is doing is by watching them and recognizing their progress.

Timors are the queen of the empty cage syndrone. That is, they like to hide from predators, all the time. Again, not all of them, just most of them. Even the bold ones will hide at important times. Nothing wrong with that. But one thing. You have to know what monitors are doing. Because you will not see it. So they are not the best beginers monitors. Once you gain experience, then it makes it easy to tolerate this empty cage stuff. Several people here have provided decent conditions, without any luck, I then recomend digging up the cage. They often find several clutches of eggs. All done out of sight.

Other species like ackies, storrs, tristis, are exactly like timors, except they will do all important behaviors on your forehead, if you want. So, you can see what they are doing, not predict what they are doing. This is important.

Take tristis and glauerti(kimberlys) they appear to be direct desendants of Timors. In fact, the first kimberly was preserved in a jar, labelled as a timor type(v.scalaris)

So if your partial to timors, these two species are nearly the same. As with timors, who are combo nesters, both ground and tree nesters, these two also understand both.

Of course I understand if you still want to start with timors(the complex) As I am a firm believer of keeping what blows your skirt up(what you like) But that will be taking the hard road, with more work, you will eventually get there even taking the hard road.

So all and all, don't go by species specific stuff, if you do, you will only get confused. Go by behavioral results, I do the least and get the most. But then, as my opponents often say, I must just be lucky, decades of lucky. If so, I will take that luck and keep applying it. Cheers

sidbarvin Dec 31, 2006 01:06 PM

Years ago I got my first Monitor. Iwas torn between a water and an ornate nile. Everybody told me these were for experienced keepers and I should get a sav. So I took their advice. I got myself set up and got one. I took good care followed directions and the little fella grew. In truth I really didnt like the thing. It started to get fatter, uglier, and more boring the bigger it got. It really wasnt I wanted so I took it to where I had purchased it. At the time The store owner just happened to have a group of hatchling common niles and a salvator in the back that wasnt yet for sale but I could see it if I wanted to. I saw the little water and just had to have it. The man was quite reluctant, he really seemed to care about the animals welfare, but after some serious persuasion, He took the sav back and took $100 to hold it untill it was ready. He said thet since the sav looked so healthy and grew so well in the short time that I had it he guessed I could buy it. When I was able to bring it home I was never happier. I had it for 5 years. Same thing followed instructions it grew quickly stayed healthy. I dont really care if Timors might be a little harder. Ill do whatever I have to do to keep them properly. Thanks again,
Roger

FR Dec 31, 2006 02:23 PM

As it turns out, I am suppose to be getting a reverse trio of Timors(bluespots, i believe) in the next week.

A local young man, raised them from hatchlings and hes ready to change these for animals what perform with you. So hes putting them on breeding loan. This young man is a really good fella. I really enjoy our conversations. Also conversations with both his parents. Hes a very lucky young man.

We can share our experiences. Cheers

sidbarvin Dec 31, 2006 03:45 PM

So am I to assume it would be a good idea to start with a colony rather than trying to find a mate for mine and hope they get along. My niles certainly dont. Are timors different in that respect.

FR Dec 31, 2006 03:57 PM

In this case, you will normally have to start with seperate individuals, as very few people are breeding them. I do not know of any, right off hand.

In the past, a fella named Holstrum(sp) on his own and at the bronz zoo, bred true timors for a very long time. I am not sure if they still are. I actually ended up with some of those, years ago.

In the last 10 or 12 years, true timors have not been imported, so there are very few around, But other members of that group, Like V.similis, was heavily imported, then that stopped, then Bluespots and yellow spots. Etc. All are members of the same group, but have normally been assigned to different species. Oh, I do have a pair of V.scalaris, another member of that group.

As I mentioned above, at one time, a friend and I had five or six different types of timors, with some totally undiscribed. Of course I have never seen those types again.

Back for wandering. You most likely will have to work with whatever you can get.

The ones I am getting were hatched from a clutch from a wild female. Cheers

sidbarvin Dec 31, 2006 09:25 PM

So FR I suppose my first task would be to establish exactly what species I am dealing with and try to find more of the same. In the meantime I'll be watching its behavior closely. Does a 5'long X 3'tall X 2' deep sound large enough? Bigger maybe. I already have one the size mentioned but if this is minimal I'll build a larger one. The lizard is quite active actually and dosent seem too flighty when I approach, he does perk his head up and becomes quite alert when I do so. However it seems to know when the door opens and the hand draws near to the opening because as soon as this happens he's gone. Any how thanks again. I'm going to try to get a descent picture to post and find out what the hell this thing is.

Roger

holygouda Dec 31, 2006 03:27 PM

Thanks Frank!

Great post.

Neal_ Dec 31, 2006 01:02 PM

I assume you must be referring to my childish banter. Hahaha

Cheers

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