Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read the thread below, and yes I got a kick out of some of the comments made by a cetain individual. He seems "not-so-happy" with lots of time on his hands...(still laughing).
But some good points were made.

AND: It DID make me think about a different topic that hasn't been brought up in that thread: Dwarfism!
I know for a fact that some breeders on here (like the ones in the thread below) have HUGE collections and been breeding for decades. So they MUST almost certainly be breeding herps for a living (cause PROPERLY taking care of huge collections takes lots of TIME).
So in order for some breeders to make a buck more consistently (since it pays for their living), they are probably more or less encouraged (or even forced) to breed their snakes as soon as possible: Like 18 inches?
So if someone where to consistently breed snakes at say 18", wouldn't this be a case of "controlled natural selection"?
You would, from generation to generation, encourage snakes to mature more rapidly and to produce earlier thus encouraging smaller size and earlier maturity?
I know this has been a serious problem with some Indigo snakes in the past years: Dwarfism...(but that could be genetic too)
I have also noticed that Honduran milks over five feet in length are rare in today's collections. When I purchased my baby Hondos, I made it a point to buy from someone who had Hondos that were at least five feet long (BOTH PARENTS).

Here's one natural example of Dwarfism: the Eastern Diamondbacks of Little Saint Simons Island of Georgia are VERY COMMON (thousands). BUT food is scarce, so they have adapted to survive by staying small (snakes of 3.5 foot are RARE), and producing at a younger age than their cousins on the mainland. So this would, in a way, encourage dwarfism due to food supply and lack of natural predators.
In the case of some breeders breeding younger and smaller animals all the time, wouldn't this inadvertently program snakes to consistently produce at progressively younger ages (due to selective line breeding)? And if that were the case, then subconsciously there would be no reason for snakes to attain a large size anymore, because natures' purpose has been fullfilled: Escape predators, survive, be fruitfull and multiply (all in ONE year, lol)!
So maybe by waiting an extra year or two, we might simulate what happens more or less in nature (a mix of breedable animals). Some folks on here have said that 18" kingsnakes breeding in the wild happens all the time??? I disagree with that - ONLY based on my own observations of much field herping. I think that is the exception NOT the rule here. I have found MANY kingsnakes in the wild (hundreds) when living in GA. many, many years ago. The smallest gravid female I remember finding was maybe around 34"-36" long. Of course some others like Cal kings and Speckled kings are smaller snakes and you can probably find some gravid ones around 24" occasionally I guess?
But just throwing it out there. Not trying to offend anyone - just want your experienced opinion... I may be way off on this whole thing, but I won't know until I ask, right? What do you guys/gals think?) THANKS!

As for me... Gotta love them "Rat-crushers"!!!

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Female dwarfs do not mature at eight, they mature at the same age as girls of normal height, etc. It’s in the genes. When an egg is attacked by a fungus, or unusual temperature fluctuations that result in a weird pattern on a hatchling, that trait is not part of the dna and is not reproducible by selective breeding. With little snakes, I’m pretty sure you can not alter the dna by withholding proper nutrition, cage size or underage parents. You could select “runt of the litter” hatchlings and selectively breed for ones that already have that trait expressed and exaggerate it over several generations to eventually produce a line of “mini” _______ (fill in blank). Also, runts can be produced by huge parents too. I’ll ignore the part about the thread below- you are trolling a bit there, let it die already or add to it down there! No offence meant.
Happy New Year! Hope evryone has a productive year, and I can't wait so see some of those "surprises" from last year revealed!
And I'm rootin' for Gators tonight.

Sounds like a dangerous topic considering the last few threads on this subject.

I'm not aware of studies in reptiles, but breeding at an early age in other animals (flies, humans) has been shown to cause shorter lifespans. Some animals (birds) that are bred at an early age stop reproducing at an earlier age as well. I haven't heard of dwarfism being caused by breeding at an early age, it is usually genetic, or caused by limited resources (insular). I would love to see if there are any scientific studies on early breeding age in snakes, and possible long term health issues.

You are using great examples, but are interpiting them a little off(sorta wrong)

It appears heavily impacted wild populations respond as you mentioned. With a dense population of very small adults. This is true of some situations like your island population or heavily collected areas(without habitat destruction)

What you missed is this. Its all about timing or aging. All populations have an age. Some are young, an example is those where there are mostly small adults. And Mature populations, which are made up of fewer larger adults.

Most undistrubed populations are mature. Where there is little need to recruit and reproduction is at its least. Its a balanced habitat(for that species). The population has filled their nitch and is consuming its prey base to a point of allowing little growth and reproduction. After all, there is little need for long lived animals.

A young population is the opposite. It follows habitat destruction. For instance, I would expect to see the 9th ward in New Orleans fill up with millions of small adult speckled kings. As I would a commonly plowed field next to natural habitat. And as mentioned, as I would a heavily collected area. If left alone, all these young populations will eventually balance out(mature) into fewer larger individuals with much less recruitment.

In captivity its the same and its different. The results, smaller adults heavy producing adults are caused by lack of resources, much like nature. The controls are normally different. In captivity its more about schedules and regimes and tiny cages. In nature, these heavily populated areas will soon thin out when harvested by natural predators, then the survivors will have greater resources to grow larger, They will grow fewer in number as the larger they get, the less places there are to support them. If they cannot find suitable support, they wander and are added to the food chain.

I have found over the years that its more benefitual to breed smaller adults then larger adults, for one simple reason, its takes far less energy support to allow smaller individuals to reproduce then it does for the very large individuals. In other sad terms, you get more bang for your buck with smaller individuals. Also smaller individuals are LESS WORK, and work is THE limiting factor in large collections, commerical or otherwise.

In captivty these results are often from being kept at averages. They do not have access to extremes. They never get as much food as they can consume. For two reasons, one, there conditions prevent it. Most captives cannot digest extreme large prey items or lots of smaller ones because the conditions prevent digestion of anything more then a small prey item.

As I have said many times, wild reptiles hold the extreme records. From death to success. When I was young, I read of a bullsnake in Iowa or some such cornfield place, that was plowed up. It contained 98 mice. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Or a friend picked up a gravid gila and it upchucked, 7 rabbits, not exactly babies. Another very close friend picked up another gravid gila, only to have it upchuck 31 quail eggs. Has anyone ever fed that much in captivity???? Consider, even if one did, its not commonplace, it fact the opposite is commonplace.

I worked at a Fla reptile institute, we recieved Indigos all the time. They commonly upchucked meals beyond believe, like, a five foot EDB, a five foot corn, much smaller. A grip of tortoises, in one belly. A whole catch of fish, robbed someones bucket. Etc etc. I don't believe anyone is attending to their natural needs. Remember reptiles are all about extremes.

One project I was in charge of was indigos to be used for talks. The normal procedure was to place one for the talks, and soon it died and then replace it. Of course I had a better Idea, I got seven indigos and named them for each day of the week. They each spend one day on the talks and six days in my control. In the past, the keepers were allowed to feed them one mouse a week each. As you can imagine they would starve to death. So I improvised. I was allowed all the chicken necks and smelt I wanted. So I gave them their one mouse, and as much chicken necks and smelt as they would eat. Then for added measure, I injected the smelt and chicken necks with vitamins.

The results were a little unexpected, soon the indigos grew very large and very very very strong, which is a good thing. BUT and this is a big but, when on a talk, instead of the kids manhandling the snakes, which was indeed the case in the past, the snakes tossed the kids forth and back. So while I thought I was doing a good thing, the management wanted half dead snakes for the public to handle.

I mention this because its more about what we do with snakes, then the snakes themselves. Yes, snakes have a genetic potential. In nature that potential is explored and meaningful. In captivity, we tend to explore a very limited part of their potential.

Unfortunately, even highly experienced like you, still fall for old wifestails. We blame the snakes instead of blaming ourselves or blaming other keepers.

The truth is, there is really no such thing as an expert keeper/breeder, but there are those who let the snakes be expert at being snakes. It really doesn't matter if you sell the results or not. Its all about letting the snakes be the expert.

Which leads to this, we who are interested in these wonderful animals should take an approach of asking the snakes what they are, instead of telling them what they are. It really is about that simple. Cheers

great stuff FR!!!!!
happy newyear,,,,,,,thomas davis

FR lays it all out in well thought out posts like in the below thread. Then people just relpy with snips and pharases like they don't have a clue on how to contructivly argue.

..or i suppose they are avoiding it because they painted themselves into a corner.

The only arguement I keep seeing now from Billy is "the majority of herpers disagree". Well its a good thing that FR came along when the "majority of herpers" didn't have a clue on how to breed snakes at all. I was one of them in the 60's and 70's. The only way to secure a speciman back then was to take it out of the wild. Captive breeding was something "us" herpers didn't even think about.

Thanks FR and have a happy new year. I know that I would not have the good temerament in trying to explain these things over and over when people are just not getting it. To me its all just common sense. I would (and am ) frustrated with people logic and reasoning. Kudos to you for trying!

"Then people just relpy with snips and pharases like they don't have a clue on how to contructivly argue."

People have been studying how to constructively argue since there have been people. Philosophers have made a science out of it. A good debater knows the rules and how to avoid fallacious arguments.

Possibly the most common fallacious argument is Argumentitum Ad Hominem, literally "Argument to the Man". This is when you personally attack the person you are arguing with. Attacking the intelligence, character, ability to understand, etc. of the person you are debating weakens your argument. Your argument should stand on logic alone.

We are all guilty of occasionally using fallacious arguments. A good debater should avoid them and know how to spot them when used by other people.

Someone once posted a link to a pdf document of fallacious arguments on this site, and I have saved the document ever since. Here is another good link.Maybe if we all tried to avoid these fallacies, there would be more constructive arguments on this forum.

A List of Fallacious Arguments

Possibly the most common fallacious argument is Argumentitum Ad Hominem, literally "Argument to the Man". This is when you personally attack the person you are arguing with. Attacking the intelligence, character, ability to understand, etc. of the person you are debating weakens your argument. Your argument should stand on logic alone.

Ah ha! But the internet is different. I think these forums are a place, at their best, for both novice and expert alike to obtain FACTS which will help further their own herpetological efforts.

Unfortunatly, many also use the internet/forums to advance their own personal agenda for whatever reason through deliberate misinformation. Add to that personal character attacks and the reasonable poster is expected to return with an ethical response? IMO, FR's post are more than than just information. He does not have to post here. He has gone over and explained these things over and over and some idividuals pride just won't let it go. He cares about snakes and whatever information he shares makes some peoples little boxed world seem small. That is their snakes problem, not his snakes.

Billys post of late have been .. well (lets just re-read the thread in order and any/all interested will be able to draw their own conclusions). Certain individuals/issues need a "power wash" occasionally- to help others being mislead.

This is the insternet. Some people can take a snip and phrase and make it seem like an arguement when in fact it is not even there to begin with. FR has never done that. He has been honest behind the truths of various species and their biology. He has never colored the situation to or taken an opportunity to make himself seem more accomplished.

You see, as Bill Parcels said last week. This game is not about talking, its a show me game. So shut up and show me. (football, TO and the cowboys)

Well this relates here because this is not based on theory or logic. Its based on results. The origin of this thread is whether Cal kings can be breed at 18 inches. The answer is YES. They can and have and have gone on to lead otherwise normal lifes. This was verified by several people. In all reality, end of story.

There is no debating results. You can question results. You can choose to not believe them. You can choose to test them. You can do all sorts of things. But there is and was no debate.

In most instances, its merely a report of an event. The event is a result.

From that point on, your post fits and fits well. But its not about the subject of reptiles, its about people fooling with other people. Simply put, you can debate thoughts and theory. But the big difference between theory and results is, results are what makes theories no longer theories. Once a theory culminates in a result, its no longer a theory.

On a side note. Most are here, to engage in human enteraction. Not discuss the actual subject. So simply put, its not about the snakes or monitors, my speciality. Its simply about people playing with other people.

There is nothing wrong with this, its simply for fun and to avoid boredom. So as long as it does not violate the TOS, its fine. IF you violate the TOS, you get put in time out, or worse. I know that place well.

Again Simply put, snakes are to friggin slow, and boring. What they do in an entire year can be reported in a few short paragraphs. That leaves 364 days and 23 1/2 hours a year to come up with something to talk about. Of course some of us have lots of snakes and reptiles, so you can knock off a few more hours.

So, all this tomfoolishness is bound to happen and most likely should happen. As they draw far more attention and bring out far more lurkers, then actual real information. Sad but true.

In many cases, real information surfaces. But not always.

In my case, I follow a game plan. I normally respond nicely and directly. In following posts, if the person trys to venture away from the subject, you know, talk about me or others, I help them go walkabout. If they do not want to stay on subject, its not my problem. As I have mentioned, walkabouts are fun. In extreme cases, I will led them in circles until their brains fall out of their ears. Kinda funny if you think about it.

People profess they come here to gain information. But if led to believe something they are doing is not recomended, they get defensive and go all ballistic(attack) In most cases, they come here because they need help, which clearly indicates they did something wrong. ITs a visious circle. After all, keeping snakes is merely simple troubleshooting. Its not all that complicated.

Which again leds us back to boredom. Which leds to tomfoolishness.

Of course many have other issues, and there is no debating that. hahahahahahaha cheers

What does this have to do with the subject of dwarfism?

I was responding to the debate issue.

As far as I can tell, dwarfism is too silly to talk about. As no one wants to use actual biology in this discussion.

You cannot dwarf an animal with suboptimum conditions. You can keep them in the lower reaches of their natural potential. Which has already been said, many times.

Dwarfism can only be practiced genetically, that is thru selective breeding. This could occur if one came up with a genetic abnormality. Say a female that consistantly produced half sized eggs and offspring. And these offspring consistantly only grew to a small size in all types of husbandry. Then breeding this trait out. Which has not been done.

So basically were talking about different degrees of husbandry. And those with poor husbandry do not want to admit it. They would rather again blame the snakes. Or make up stuff like all others have secret agendas or molds, I may be old, but I do not have mold yet. Cheers

Yup, that's it. Husbandry is the issue. And most of us do not have the time, the space, nor the desire to limit our collections to do the optimal thing. The hardest thing to do is admit our shortcomings. I don't know about mold but I seem to remember a fungal infection you had once around '67!!!!!!

Preacher Pat

Are you gonna let him get away with that? LOL!
'67 Who knows what was goin' around back then!
I hope everybody and the Herps have a wonderful New Year!
-Phil

I've been following this forum for the last two days, and I think your all going STIR CRAZY!LOL, and need to get out of the house.LOL!! Here are some staged pictures I scaned from about 4 years ago. They always bring me back to reality! LOL.

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R.BICHLER
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

you would never bring that up again, shame on you. I guess I should have tossed that big blue mitchells, just a little farther. hahahahahahahahahaha. Happy New Years Pat.

Um, I agree with most of what you said Frank. I do think that people are here for a variety of reasons, one of which is to learn. Messing with other people is great fun too, and can usually be done without violating the TOS.

So, I agree that kingsnakes can be bred at 18". I accept that as fact.

What we CAN debate is whether snakes should breed at 18". That is a matter of opinion. We can argue from the perspective of the wild snake, the captive bred snake, the breeder, the purchaser of the offspring.. There are lots of perspectives to consider here. None are right or wrong, but it does kill the boredom as you say.

If I was buying a snake, I would prefer that it was not the offspring of an 18" female because I have questions about possible health issues. I would also prefer not to buy a snake that had been bred at 18" for the same reasons. Do I have hard evidence showing that there are health problems in these animals? No, but I would rather play it safe. Who knows, not breeding at 18" may cause health problems (re-absorbing ovum...)

A very different question. Of course that answer depends on the skill of the keeper.

I still have to ask this question. Or group of related questions. Do we breed them, or do they breed eachother???? I have never bred a snake, I only allow them to breed eachother.

Also, as I have stated a million times, a female cannot produce offspring(babies or eggs) unless she develops enlarged ovum. With that understood, is it better to let a female proceed as naturally intended? or interfere and stop any copulation? ITs my personal opinion and experience its much harder for females to absorb ovum. I think they can only do this a limited amount of times.

There is something that just popped into my peabrain. You see, I come from a very different prespective. I do not hibernate reptiles, and I keep them normally in pairs or groups. So I do not do anything to breed them. They breed, when and where they want. No matter what I say.

Those of you who think YOU breed them. I think you have some issues best not solved here, hahahahahahaha Cheers

Breeding snakes, or with any other animals is illegal in most states! LOL!
-Phil

Fish keepers have known this for a long time (I know it sounds fishy!!!). Provide the right water chemistry, the right substrate, the right aquarium size, the right temps, the right food, etc. and the critters will do what comes naturally, what they are programed to do. The fish do the breeding. When I was in High School I worked for the person who first had Harris Hawks and Peregrine Falcons breed in his aviaries. It's all about husbandry.
Shalom,

Pat

Hi Pat, was that Jim White? he was a biker right. Funny I worked for him too. Did you introduce us. I was telling a friend about him the other day and could not remember where we met. Thanks Pat

"Possibly the most common fallacious argument is Argumentitum Ad Hominem, literally "Argument to the Man". This is when you personally attack the person you are arguing with. Attacking the intelligence, character, ability to understand, etc. of the person you are debating weakens your argument. Your argument should stand on logic alone. "

Very good post!!!
This, and I am not trying to start anything, really illustrates FR's position in the thread down below, to a tea. FR mostly, since he attacked me personally, with to no avail. I in no way responded the way he did, and of course, ego was shown more than anything. We had a disagreement, and the evidence was shown.

What is funny is that I have stated before that FR has had some good posts, has knowledge in the field of snakes, and he does have something to offer in this subject. I do like how he tries to view everything from the viewpoint of " nature ". I said that with the same type of thread months ago. It is just that he seems to lose focus once he is called on something or someone disagrees, and then he responds in a derogatory way. Then others feel the need to chime in and it is apparent that they are fascinated, maybe too much, by his position. Well, nothing anyone can do about it except FR himself, and I really wish he would take some time to consider how he treats others, which reflects on how others view him and how they take in his information.

Good post.
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Genesis 1:1

Excellant! Thank you!
Todd Hughes

Thank you for your well thought out post ZEE! I would say that this is one of the better posts on this subject and you have made some good points to ponder.

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Genesis 1:1

Well, I don't think that people are trying to breed their snakes at a smaller age. Because like anything you read says if its smaller there is a higher chance of complications and loss of the entire clutch. I mean when I think of a gravid snake the length of my monitor screen, its just silly. I'm not saying that it does'nt happen in the wild. I just don't think that people are actually trying to make dwarfs because although its easier to feed a smaller specimen and to house it. The loss of the female and her entire clutch is not something alot of people want to risk.

What a great discussion!!!! It really has made me think and wonder!!!
From my experience-- I spent a significant portion of the '70's and '80's breeding and wholesaleing Cichlid Fish, specializing in Central American forms and African Rift Lake Forms. One of my best sellers were a mid-sized fish called a Convict Cichlid. Because they sold so well I had about a dozen pairs set-up. Some pairs measured a little over an inch and others were a good 3.5 inches. Over a ten year period I noticed no dwarfism within the population. I sold babies at a uniform size and they were the same regardless of parent size. If there were undersized fish, it was due to poor husbandry on my part,i.e., water changes not done on time, coupled with overcrowding. Can we compare fish and reptiles????

Not from my experience-- Dealing with breeders/wholesalers since the mid seventies I have learned that Zee is correct when he says individuals want to breed as soon as they can to make money. That being the case how come it has taken us so long to see dwarf Burmese Pythons and Dwarf Retics????? If breeding at a small size results in dwarfism why hasn't that been the case with the Giant Pythons?????

Just something to chew on!!!!! Happy New Year!!!

Shalom,
Pat GC

I think true dwarfism like you see on some islands is partly genetic because the animals gradually got smaller over the generations. But I think this would take alot longer than we've been breeding snakes in captivity. I mean you have smaller and larger snakes of the same species, some of it can be genetic but alot of it is the environment. I remember seeing a small article in a recent issue of discovery magazine and there was a set of twins that had recently been reunited. One was raised in a upper middle class family the other was raised in near poverty. Well although they were identical twins the one raised in the upper middle class family was several inches taller and was a bit larger structurally. I thought this was interesting for us to consider.

> I have also noticed that Honduran milks over five feet in length
> are rare in today's collections. When I purchased my baby Hondos,
> I made it a point to buy from someone who had Hondos that were at
> least five feet long (BOTH PARENTS).

I wonder if that has anything to do with undocumented hybrids that some think were used in the creation of the hondo morph craze.
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3.3.4 L. getula californiae
1.1 L. getula nigrita
1.0 Boa constrictor constrictor (suriname, fostering/rescue)
2.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Another interesting thought!!!! How can one tell???? As I was cleaning/feeding last night I was wondering why Nelson Milks I have seen and have are not as big and robust as Sinoloan Milks. Maybe I just havn't seen enough of both. Who knows!?!?!?!

Pat