Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have never shown this snake to anyone prior to tonight. This is Santaremo a male that was born here in 2004. Until he was 18 months old he looked like a normal BRB. Over the past 12 months he has gradually lost his orange color. Ontogenetic anerthyrism?

So you are probably saying..."hey Jeff, quit monkeying around with photoshop. What does he really look like?". Well this is what he really does look like. He does have some red pigment, most notably around his head and he does have bright golden orange crescents on the sides. Here he is with Branco an old red-orange male. I suppose someone could play a trick like this with photoshop but it is way beyond my abilities.

The boys were not going to sit still and take a nice PIC so I got out Ria a 2004 female to see if the two of them would sit still for photos together.

Looks a lot like a hypo but all the hypo's I've seen were born that way. Hmmmmm, new morph? Will be interesting to see what happens with that project. Do you still have the parents? It would be interesting to see what came out of breeding him back to his mother. Did you keep records on where the rest of the babies went? Maybe you could contact the buyers and see if any others lightened up the same way?
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
12.24 BRB
11.13 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,
...I really think his look is more anerythristic than hypo. His dark markings are almost as dark and are as distinct as on a normal BRB. I do not know which male fathered him. His mother is my white sided female. Other than her white sides she is normal looking with lots of red-orange pigment. He is the only one of her 2004 babies I have. I think I remember some interesting white sides among his siblings. Mom's 2005 babies all looked normal and pretty. I sold all of them.
Jeff

>>Looks a lot like a hypo but all the hypo's I've seen were born that way. Hmmmmm, new morph? Will be interesting to see what happens with that project. Do you still have the parents? It would be interesting to see what came out of breeding him back to his mother. Did you keep records on where the rest of the babies went? Maybe you could contact the buyers and see if any others lightened up the same way?
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>12.24 BRB
>>11.13 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

That's a very pretty animal. I was thinking hypo as well. It looks like the red fades away as you go farther from his head. What are your plans for him?
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Mike,
...I do not have any of his siblings and so will breed him to a normal orange female and one of the Walsh Clown Phase females.
Jeff

>>That's a very pretty animal. I was thinking hypo as well. It looks like the red fades away as you go farther from his head. What are your plans for him?
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

Very nice! I bet it feels great to see something like that developing. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Hopefully it'll be "genetic". I don't like to use that term because everything is genetic but you know what I mean.

Jamie,
..Yes, everything is genetic. Like most people in the same family have similar faces. Except for the ones that look like the milk man. What I would hope for with this snake is that it is an example of a heritable genetic mutation/morph.
Jeff

>>Very nice! I bet it feels great to see something like that developing. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Hopefully it'll be "genetic". I don't like to use that term because everything is genetic but you know what I mean.

Ha ha. Yeah that's a strange genetic anomaly

heritable genetic mutation/morph is what I was getting at. I'm still confused about how a mutation can NOT be heritable. Would it be a mutation that occurs in a somatic cell but doesn't occur in a germ cell ?

Jamie

Genetics is definately exact, but almost never clear.

IMO what we refer to as heritable morphs are related to a single gene. Other morphs could either be polygenic (multiple genes) or not even related to genes at all. For example gestational temps are known to affect outcome, causing aberencies that are not heritable since they are not related to genes.

I also think some of the polygenic traits could easily be a combination of recessive, dominant and co-dominant mutant gene pairs that all have to be present in the right quantities for the trait to show. If that's correct, then breeding two animals with the same trait would not necessarily produce any similar babies depending on the number and complexity of gene pairs involved.

One more item for thought, "Variable expression". We've all seen it where there are a range of outcomes within a single litter for just one thing. ie crescents, I've had litters where some babies have some of the crescents in a full bullseye pattern while siblings can have thick or even thin crescents. Is it genetic, you bet. In my colony was always related to one of my two males.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
12.24 BRB
11.13 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Jamie,
...Mutations can be caused by improper alignment and/or encoding-decoding "mistakes" along DNA strings. These probably most often result in grossly abnormal fetuses that die very early in development. There is an enormous amount of normal variation in the expression of heritable genetic traits within a subspecies. Differences in color of BRBs from brown to orange to red to yellow are comparable to differences in complexion among members of the same human races. Just as amazingly variable is the expression of different sizes in human beings and Boa Constrictors. Yes, these traits can all be heritable but some of them just happen, again look at differences among siblings. IMO we herpers place too much emphasis upon naturally occurring variations.
Jeff

>>Ha ha. Yeah that's a strange genetic anomaly
>>
>>heritable genetic mutation/morph is what I was getting at. I'm still confused about how a mutation can NOT be heritable. Would it be a mutation that occurs in a somatic cell but doesn't occur in a germ cell ?
>>
>>Jamie

That is a very unique and pretty BRB.