Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just on Melissa Kaplan's website in a quest for a list of plants that are suitable for an outdoor box turtle enclosure.

While the site has a comprehensive list of plants, it doesn't seem to identify a list of plants that work well specifically for box turtles.

Does anyone have any first-hand expierience with plants for OUTDOOR enclosures? I want to get these planted now, so that they can get a chance to take root before I add turtles this spring.

I'm looking for plants that are low-lying (not taller than 12"~14" are leafy (or otherwise provide good shade) and low maintenance (can take bright sun 8 hours a day and only need to be watered 2~3 times a week.)

Any ideas?

I would think that whatever you plant would depend on what's native or can grow well in your zone.
We had honeysuckle at one time, the box turtles loved it but the darn thing died. I'm planning to try that again this year.
However my boxes are ornate & for the most part aren't very interested in plants to eat, it's more about plants for cover for them.
I'm wondering are you looking for plants for them to eat or to use as cover or both?
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PHRatz

I'm looking primarily for shade, and in particular something that is a perennial. I don't want to have to keep uprooting it and replanting it every year.

I may keep a few things for them to eat in the planter boxes that I have added next door to the main enclosure too.

wild strawberries seem to do well with my three toes, I added some oglalla and some fresa strawberries to the mix this fall and tossed some more hosta seeds in, the hosta thats in there now is to tall but the turtles like it even though the poor thing always looks so bad, hopefully it'll stunt itself.
hostas that grow in sunny areas seem to get very bushy but stay about 9 inches or so(not counting the flowering stem which can be broken off), so you could try them, worst case senario is it'll die.

I agree, Hosta are wonderul plants. They have finally developed some cultivars that can handle more sun. It may be a challenge where you are, but it's worth a shot. You may need to do some searching on the internet to find companies that have the more specialized varieties.

One plant that I've had great success with is actually a spinach vine. It's called Malabar spinach. It produces thick, fleshy, dark green leaves and eventually purple berries. It's nearly bullet proof. The downfalls are that it is only an annual, and excessive spinach in the diet of chelonians can apparently lead to crystal and bladder stone development. My turtles only rarely chomp on the greens, but they love the berries. It's a great ground cover. It started as a garden plant for the humans, but ended as box turtle fodder.

that makes me think of an old member here who had some squash start growing in his turtle pen, the turtles loved it but as I recall the plant was a bit to big.

I think I remember someone mentioning that. It's funny the things that'll pop up in a pen according to what they've been fed. I tried for two years to sprout peach trees from seed, along with my normal yearly crop. Of course, it happened naturally in the pen with no care and despite being trampled on for a year.

P.s. Sprouting Hosta from seed can be some tedious work...you must have plant skills.

"P.s. Sprouting Hosta from seed can be some tedious work...you must have plant skills."

I have one that started to grow in with my hatchlings, unfortunatly due to the fungus I'm probably going to have to kill it, or find some way to disinfect it, it's only got one leaf so far.
is there a way to disinfect a living plant?

You can wipe the leaf down with rubbing alcohol. I would try lifting the little plant out of the soil, rinsing any soil off the roots thoroughly, wiping the leaf down with rubbing alcohol (use a cotton ball or something) and re-planting it in fresh potting soil. if the foliage is new, dilute the alcohol with some water.

You can also water plants with a dilute bleach solution ( 2tblsp. bleach to 1 gal. water), but I wouldn't do it in an enclosure with any animals in it.

I tried starting ferns and Hosta from seed due to the fact that I would just love to absolutely FILL my yard with them. With the labor involved, the money that I saved was hardly worth it. The only way I could get them to not wilt and die was constant baths with dilute 'Immunox from Spectracide'. I got so frustrated with the time involved, I put them outdoors prematurely. Over 20 seedlings were mowed down over night by slugs and isopods!

I wouldn't use the Immunox around hatchlings, but maybe you could temporarily move the plant until it hardens off. Of course, Steph's bleach solution would be much cheaper.

Cultivars of hostas with a chartreuse/golden coloration do much better in sun than do others (especially bluish ones).

In this situation I would probably look into clumping ornamental grasses, such as Liriope muscari cultivars, Carex cultivars, as well as Festuca cultivars: all will do well in full sun and many don't exceed 12"-14" or so in height.

Ah Steph, you reminded me. I've been wanting to mooch some free advice from you for some time now. I keep forgetting to bring it up. Maybe this is a good time to do so, while we're discussing plants.

I've started breaking ground on two new pens...one for ornates and one for deserts. I've cleared two dying trees in my backyard, and it's created a wonderful, open, full sun spot that would be much better than the area where I have the pens now...much more air flow. Anywhoo, I'm looking for some good perennial grasses of varying heights and colors that I can landscape with. You know all about my soil...hard red clay. Liriope grows and spreads like an invasive here, so that's out. Can the grasses you mentioned handle the clay and dampness? I just love the low-lying, clumping, blue varieties. The problem is, they're usually listed by zone hardiness with no mention of soil composition (except limey) or tolerance for humidity. I need bushy grasses for these turtles because they'll bulldoze anything tender.

Basically, I know that you took the original poster's region into account. Are these grasses fairly hardy in most areas? Are there special cultivars for more humid regions? Thanks!

There is clumping Liriope (L. muscari) and there is spreading Liriope (L. spicata), and one cultivar of L. muscari ('Big Blue') is grown from seed, so it swing both ways. I bought a flat of the L. spicata about a dozen years ago because I didn't know any better, and I'm STILL trying to get rid of the stuff: it went everywhere!

Lots of grasses will do just fine in the climate you have, Ken, but you're right that the clay soil can be a challenge, because it doesn't drain well (roots can rot easily). That's one main reason why herbaceous ornamentals struggle in the South (aside from the heat).

What I would suggest that you consider is the option of tilling in some good organic matter (or sand in the T. O. pen) into the top 8"-12" inches of that clay soil in area where you want the grass to grow. That will help it drain better. If the area is (even slightly) sloped that can help, too. You ought to be able to rent a small tiller locally: rear-tined models are easier to use.

Little Bluestem (Schizachyrium) is a native prairie grass, and I know of one cultivar available called 'The Blues' that gets to be about 2' tall: there are online sources for bags of seed for this, too.

The Festucas are the blue fescues that you probably have in mind: there are several cultivars, most of which grow to 12" or less.
Carex flaccasperma is a nice blue native grass, too, and Panicum cultivars are worth a look but they get quite tall (3' is on the short side for these), although that could be kindof cool if you have the room. Sorghastrum is a native prairie grass that tolerates moist soil but gets to be 6' tall, which might not be practical for you. The turtles would probably love it though!

That should get you started.

Steph, one of the most reliable posters on the net. Thank you!

You've given me quite a good handful of varieties to choose from. I love starting things from seed, so the first variety is quite appealing. Also, the 3' variety you mentioned would be great for the rear of the pen. I've been testing and amending the soil in my yard for 4 years now. As you know, it's an ongoing struggle with clay. My neighbor has a tiller, but I usually prefer to do things by hand. Results are just so much better that way. Plus, it's a great workout! I'll do the usual additions of greensand, composted leaves, and composted manure.

Ugh, Liriope! I hate that stuff. I'll look into the other varieties, but I just can't see adding that stuff back into my yard. It's a great ground cover, and my turtles love the berries, but I've gone through too much Roundup and aching back over the years. The previous owner of this yard loved the stuff, and I had literally an acre...an entire ACRE! And let me tell ya, you'd better dig up those little root nuggets or you might as well just give up. Or, buy a goat!

Thanks again Steph.

Oh stop...you're making me blush!

You could also use some prairie flowers, like purple coneflower (Echinacea cultivars), Gaillardia (Blanket flower), Coreopsis (Tickseed) which are easy to grow from seed, and others for your pens: you'd get all sorts of birds and butterflies, too.

And good for you for getting a great workout!

You're all making me so jealous with the plant talk!
Most of these plants you're talking about won't grow here... but then pretty much anything I want to grow here won't grow.

When we lived 35 miles or so away we had soil in our lawn & I was able to grow marigolds, hollyhocks, petunias, lots of nice plants that would reseed themselves & come back year after year. Once we moved here I haven't been able to grow anything that I want except for cactus!
This year I'll be hauling in top soil to the pen to put on top of the sand so that I can attempt to actually grow something other than weeds & cactus.

I'll read your posts, take notes, & keep my fingers crossed!
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PHRatz

You know, it's the same old story. I'm envious of you too! To me, there's nothing more beautiful than a desert landscape. In fact, one of my favorite parts of keeping ornates and deserts outside is the fact that I get to set up little "rock garden, desert-like microhabitats".

I have such fond memories of summers spent on a Navajo Indian kid's camp near Gallup, NM as a pre-teen/teen. It was breathtaking! I guess it's the novelty of it. Trust me, my clay would make you equally as insane!

Thank you Ken.. I needed to hear that.
It reminded me that no matter where we live we can find something good about it just as easily as we can find something bad about it.
My sister was here over the holidays & told me how ugly she thinks our little city is. Of course I'm not fond of the DFW area where she lives because all I ever see there is traffic, traffic, & more traffic! LOL

I plan on having the honeysuckle make it this time as well as other plants that will be good cover for the box turtles and produce food for the sulcata.. I just hope my plans work out.
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PHRatz

If there is an equestrian stable in your area, you might be able to score some manure: some places will pretty much give it away. The only drawback is that, unless it is already well rotted, you'd need to let it decompose some before putting into your soil or around plant (the high nitrogen content in the fresh stuff can burn roots).

Of course, your neighbors might have something to say about the, er, aroma.

Oh Steph horse manure would be nice, we actually have neighbors 3 & 4 doors down who have horses.
That leads to a long story that I couldn't possibly bore everyone with, the Reader's Digest version is this:
An evil woman lives across the street catty-cornered from me who spends her days reporting everyone in the area for code infractions. Oh my God you can't have a weed that's taller than 18 inches or she'll have the code officer knocking on your door telling you to mow or be fined.
She has complained so much about those horses to Animal Services it's caused the people who own them remove feces as soon as it hits the ground in order to shut her up.
So anything smelly wouldn't go over here because the Wicked Witch to the East of me would put a stop to it real quick.

Ok this is OT.. I just am really ticked off about it.
We have brand new neighbors on our east side. On New Year's Eve they were outside at 4 in the afternoon bar-b-queing & as they did so they had a radio on. Just a regular radio not one with the big boom box that vibrates everything.. no just a plain cheap radio that I heard only when I walked out back to check the tortoise.
Wicked Witch called the police to complain about the loud music! :::rolling eyes:::
I consider her evil because that's going way too far.
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PHRatz

What a pain! I wonder how many nuisance calls she makes...that's too bad. The manure would have been a free source of a good soil amendment, instead of paying for a load of topsoil.

I'm lucky with my neighbors: we're all pretty tolerant of each other, and we usually talk to eachother first (instead of calling the authorities) if there's a problem of any kind. And the little kids like to come look at the turtles.

Last spring I went to an advisory committee meeting for the vet-tech program & was seated across the table from the director of Animal Services. I got to talking to him oh gosh this is a long story for why he told me what he told me. I can't post all this it's too off topic & too much.
The end of it is, that Wicked Witch had made so many complaints about the horses that he had sent her a letter telling her to knock it off with the false complaints or HE would file charges on HER. That shut her up for a few months but she's back at it now on noise instead of the horses.

You are lucky to have good neighbors. Actually most of the neighbors here are reasonable people who if they have a problem will also come talk first.. it's just the one nut & the old man nut who lives behind her who have to report everyone constantly. What a waste of law enforcement time. I could tell when I saw & heard what the cop was saying the other day- he was irritated that he'd been sent on a waste of time call.

We've always let the kids come in too when the season is more turtle/tortoise friendly.
I've found over the years that being nice to the kids when they were little has caused them to skip our house when they're up to no good as rowdy teenage boys. LOL
In fact it was two of those boys who found Charity my giant box turtle & brought her to me. If not for the kids Charity would've starved to death out there by herself.

Anyway.. I should shut up now.
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PHRatz

"That shut her up for a few months but she's back at it now on noise instead of the horses."

Maybe someone should drop some ear plugs into her mailbox....
That is such a shame that you have someone like that nearby, but glad to hear that at least one official got her to stop with some calls.

Yeah, I'm hoping that a little goodwill with the turtles will pay off later when the kids are grown, too!

Another reason I do it is to help parents off the hook when the little ones demand a pet turtle: I tell them they're not really great pets (and why...mentioning salmonella usually does the trick), but that they're welcome to come look at ours. They have to have parental supervision, and either myself or my husband must be here to give permission.

So far it has worked out well (knock wood).

Cheers!

>>Yeah, I'm hoping that a little goodwill with the turtles will pay off later when the kids are grown, too!

I'll bet that it will work.
>>
>>Another reason I do it is to help parents off the hook when the little ones demand a pet turtle: I tell them they're not really great pets (and why...mentioning salmonella usually does the trick), but that they're welcome to come look at ours. They have to have parental supervision, and either myself or my husband must be here to give permission.
>>
>>So far it has worked out well (knock wood).

Oh I wish that would work here. But no because each year when I teach the class for kids that runs in June one of the first questions I ask on day 1 is how many of you have box turtles in your backyard?
I always see a lot of hands. There's nothing I can do about that other than harp on diet for them. No more cat/dog food, no more iceberg lettuce!
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PHRatz

I have a virtual field of purple coneflowers...I love them. The best part of them are the yellow jewels that visit them every fall, Goldfinches! I'll have flocks of them in my yard in a frenzy for coneflower seeds. How about Rudbeckia for box turtles? I've heard conflicting things about them. They grow fairly wildly throughout my beds, and I've been hesitant to add them to the pens.

I haven't heard anything negative about Black-eyed Susans, at least for having around box turtles, although they can kindof takeover a flower bed after a year or two. It's a plant native to much of the east and midwest, so that is a point in its favor. Because the leaves on them are a bit hairy, they can irritate your skin if your sensitive.

I love the little flying lemon drops: I have an 'upsidedown' finch feeder outside a kitchen window here, and have a small flock that visits regularly. The cats like to sit on the windowsill watching All Bird TV, chattering at the birds and lashing their tails.

Can you tell us where you live (general vicinity, not specific address) so we can have an idea of what plants would do well in your climate?

Your choices will be somewhat limited due to the height requirements that you mentioned.

I live in the Santa Cruz mountains, outside of San Jose.

The height restrictions come from the fact that we have a labrador and some local raccoons that might love to make friends with the boxes. Because of that, I built a Spucklerboxx that has two screens over the top.

I know that many people have replied, but think I have something to add. First off, many of the plant suggestions made were good. Malabar Spinach, not really a spinach, is a good choice. It is actually closely related to Portulaca(purslane), and does not have the same potential health risks as spinach. I am not sure of its specific nutritional content, but it is high in calcium, iron, vitamins A and C, and is probably similar to portulaca nutritionally.

Strawberry plants, either wild or trailing cultivar, would also be a good choice. The leaves are quite nutritious, and they don't require a great deal of care. Other plants that may work would be coral vine(Antigonon), sweet potato vine, Cats claw vine(Macfadyena unguis), Evening Primrose(Oenothera), and Poppy Mallow(Callirhoe). The evening promise and the mallow would better than the other three plants listed, but they all could work. I know that small mammals, mainly rodents, eat mallow leaves, and some people like to put the young shoots of evening primrose into salads.

Jrbl

Thanks for the Malabar spinach information. Knowing that, I feel much more comfortable having it in my pens. I guess the "spinach" name is due to the taste, which is very similar to normal spinach. I haven't tried to eat the berries myself, but like I said they are a hit with the turtles.

So portaluca is ok? It would be a great annual for my rocky areas. Also, how about Delosperma (common name ice plant)? It's growing like crazy under my mailbox, and it seems to grow well from cuttings.

Thanks for the great post already.

Just for a 'heads up'...sweet potato vine (Ipomoea spp.) turns up frequently on toxic plant lists, and Anapsid.org has it listed as toxic/harmful to reptiles (link below).
Link

>>Just for a 'heads up'...sweet potato vine (Ipomoea spp.) turns up frequently on toxic plant lists, and Anapsid.org has it listed as toxic/harmful to reptiles (link below).
>>Link

Thanks for that. My goal is to plant things that will not be toxic to the tortoise even if the boxies don't eat it themselves. I've thought about trying a rose bush in the pen because the tortoise can't have the leaves but she can have the flowers.. but then.. wouldn't it be too thorny for the boxies?
I can just imagine one of the boxies getting an eye punctured.
:-x
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PHRatz

Malabar Spinach would have to be treated as an annual in your area, Ken, based on what I could find out about it.
See if there is a wildflower or native plant society for your area/state, or just contact your county extension service and ask for a plant list (if they have one).

Yes, the malabar reseeds itself every year. It was an "accidental" addition to the pens...thank you Northern Cardinal. I grew it for a couple of years in the formal veggie garden. It's tasty, but mushy.

I'm confused, Steph. My questions were mainly geared towards cultivated plants, and if turtles can safely eat/live with them. Jrbl indicated that Portaluca was actually nutritious, and I've never heard it mentioned before. I have a handful of Portaluca seed in my fridge. The Delosperma was purchased half dead from a garden store, and has become a nice evergreen ground cover. It's not native. It's spreading onto the street, and the cuttings could root easily in the pens. I'm trying to be frugal and use what I already have.

Were you recommending the county extension for my grass questions? If that's the case, there isn't really a native grass that fits what I'm looking for.

I placed this turtle in the Delosperma on a rainy morning to snap this picture. If you look closely, you can see the concrete underneath. The plant is trailing over the concrete curb of the street, and I am literally flat out waiting to be squashed by a car.

Other planys were mentioned besides grasses, and so I was recommending the extension service for native plants that grow well in your particular area and can be purchased as cultivated plants or as seed. And for plant ideas and growing advice in general. Some natives are hard to find or are rare and protected but can be legally obtained at better stocked garden centers.
There are lots of specialty growers, too, so the service may tell you about a nursery that grows edible plants, or plants for wildlife.

Sorry about the mistake of suggesting the sweet potato vine, my bad. Ken- Yes malabar spinach is named as such as it tastes very similar to spinach. I think portulaca would be fine to use. Just a warning though, it is very invasive, and is a pest pretty much everywhere. I am not sure about ice plant. It is also very invasive, which I figure you know since it is growing at your house. I know the fruit of some other plants in the same family are edible. Additionally New Zealand spinach(Tetragonia) is in the same family and is used as alternative to spinach in dry climates. Josh

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