Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Not anymore. i think chris garcia called them ex-mex. these are some beauties produced by Mexicanamak (mike k) they are 05's.
Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

and here are the two other "light" ones

Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

They are beautiful, I haven't added them to my collection yet but have been looking at them hard lately.
Thanks for posting them.
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Michelle

those light grey ones. Do you know the locale on those or are they non-locale?

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

They are non local, Mike had some nice dark adults that he bred for the dark trait, and those two are ones that either havent turned dark yet or arent going to. for "generic" they are super nice (in my opinion)

Adam

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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

Hey Adam:

Great looking snakes there from Mr. Mike...you did well. As a point of accuracy, alterna are still considered part of the "mexicana group" or "mexicana complex" of Lampropeltis. The group includes alterna, leonis ("thayeri" in hobbyist circles), mexicana, ruthveni, greeri, and webbi. Biologically, these relationships—and whether certain forms ought to be recognized as full species—are unresolved, but ongoing genetic work should provide some answers. The most recent work, based on mitochondrial DNA sequences, suggests that alterna and leonis ("thayeri" are very closely related.

Cheers,

Bob

I have not heard of webbi, is this new? what is the history? Is it L. m. webbi or L. webbi?
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South Texas Herps

Mike:

Lampropeltis webbi was described in 2005 from the Durango/Sinaloa border region of the Sierra Madre Occidental. Based on mtDNA, it is distinct from everything. It has pattern elements suggestive of both ruthveni and mexicana, but is not particularly closely related to either. If you'd like a pdf of the paper describing the species, PM me and I'll send it. Meanwhile, here's a pic:

Cheers,

Bob

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Michelle

thanks for the info, i know they are closely related, i have recently read a report from i think 1982 on their relationship, and all though they dont have mexicana in the name, i figuered they had to be closely related, any other reading info that you suggest? or that you could email me? thanks again

Adam
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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

Adam:

The 1982 paper (by William Garstka) was important, in that he elevated alterna to species level, and also recognized the distinctiveness of ruthveni, which had been buried under the name L. triangulum arcifera (Jalisco Milksnake) by Williams. There is lots more to read for those so inclined!

Cheers,

Bob

I thought it was the Garstka paper that took alterna (and blairs) out of the mexicana complex????
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Garstka removed the name "alterna" from L. mexicana, where it had been placed as a subspecies. He simply demonstrated that there was evidence to support its recognition as a species on its own, but in fact affirmed its relatedness to other "mexicana group" species (L. ruthveni and L. mexicana). So, don't think of "species" and "group" (or "complex" as meaning the same thing. In this case, group or complex refers to a cluster of closely related species. I hope I've not added to the confusion!

Cheers,

Bob

worms now Bob. Actually I do understand what your saying here BUT........that's a big BUT there.

How does removing alterna from the L. mexicana group er subspecies uh complex and making them their own species still leave them in the mexicana "group"? I know their exact relationship is unresolved and all of the group (leonis, mexicana, greeri etc...)are closely related. I just did not think that alterna were still considered part of the "mexicana complex" now that they were elevated to the species level.

Splain it to me Lucy
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Chris:

Historically, kingsnakes (members of the genus Lampropeltis) have been placed in groups on the basis of shared characters, which are inferred to denote common ancestry. These groups—getula, calligaster, triangulum, mexicana—were comprised of species who were hypothesized to be each others' nearest relatives. The change in rank status of alterna (subspecies to species) did not change the fact that Gray-banded Kingsnakes, Nuevo Leon Kingsnakes, Durango Mountain Kingsnakes, San Luis Potosi Kingsnakes, Webb's Kingsnakes, and Ruthven's Kingsnakes are more closely related to each other (thus, the "group" concept) than any of them are to non-group members (such as Common Kings or Mole Kings). Having said that, future genetic studies could reveal that this "mexicana group," or "mexicana complex" as it is sometimes called, is not a natural grouping after all, but may have an evolutionary history that includes members of the Lampropeltis triangulum species complex (which is obviously comprised of multiple species).

Cheers,

Bob

Bob I recall somewhere that pyromelana was also very close to greeri and thayeri. I certainly do think pyros and greer's have very similar builds.

The term used to be "montane" kingsnakes. I haven't heard that term used much anymore. I guess it sounds a little too "all inclusive".
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

I understand Bob. Just because Alterna were elevated to the species level does not lessen their relationship to the rest of the Mexicana complex.

Your mention of this though is the first time I think any of us had heard of it. Thanks for the insight.

BTW the webbi pic you posted is excellent. Was that taken insitu?
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Vichris

Vichris Variables

Chris:

The webbi photo was taken in Mexico, but not in situ. The area where they are found is quite dangerous because of the concentration of narcotraficante activity in the Sinaloa-Durango border region.

Cheers,

Bob

Those are screamers, especially the top two. I hope Mexicanamak posts pics of the adults.

i have pics of them somewhere i will try and get them to you

Adam
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4.5 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 HOLD BACK RUNT ALBINO CORN
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

Hi Aaron,

This is one of the few I have of the pair together on April 02, 2005.....

Adam has a few of the better ones from the clutch, I kept three here. They did produce several very nice dark babies. I should have kept the pair for a few more years; that female was a good producer her first year, producing a clutch of twelve with eleven hatching. I have a feeling the best was yet to come from those two. I sold them along with another younger and very nice dark female the fall of that year.

Here is the second female...

Some lucky fella ended up with a nice dark trio and I would prefer not to be able to make that statement, but you know how it is when you are tight for space to maintain adults. Darn thayeri and mex mex have pretty much dominated this place.
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Mike

They all look great Adam, I knew they would be in good hands over there. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks to you and Nikki for the very thoughtful card by the way, hope the Holidays were as good to you two as they were to Mary and I. I took time off and made the great escape through Xmas and the New Year... one of the best in many years for us!
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Mike