Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yesterday morning, all my snakes were alive.

Last night, all my pythons were dead and dying. (I have a room full of colubrids, who all seem fime, so far.)

I have always tried to be careful about quarrentine procedures. Each snake has it's own feeding tub. I try to keep cages clean, and keep hand-sanitiser in the herp room.

Last year I brought in a boa who was too large to keep anywhere in my house but the herp room. She is the only snake who was not quarrentined. She dies suddenly, weeks after I got her. The necropsy indicated no signs of cryptosporosis.

My Snakes have been in brumation, and I was just warming them. All has seemed well, except one indident about a month ago, when one female ball python was twisting her head, with her mouth open. I freaked, but she stopped after about five minutes, and seemed fine since. I assumed at that point that she had gotten some substrate in her mouth, or something.

Last night two snakes were dead, and the third was in obvious pain. I felt so helpless. I couldn't think what to do for him. I put him in a pillowcase and set him outside in a snowdrift.

What are the odds of all three snakes dying like that in one day?? IOther then descibed above, I have seen no symptoms of stargazing, or anything to make me think there was anything wrong.

Like I said, all my colubrids seem OK so far, but this is scary as hell for me. I really can't afford to have necropsies done on these snakes. I am looking into sending tissue samples to a university. It all just happened so fast.

I am so sorry...you are living a herper's nightmare. I would assume since all of the snakes started dying at once that you are dealing with the same illness. I would not waste the money on necropsies for everyone...just pick a couple (in case it is not evident in one). I would definetly try to find out what you are dealing with here to help preserve any snakes you still have, and those you may obtain in the future.

Good Luck!
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2.17 Normal ball pythons
1.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
2.0 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here! Visit my website for more information: www.myboids.4t.com
*Amy*

if you "brumated" them the same way as colubrids that is why they died.

We here at Riverside Reptile Breeders are sorry for your loss, it is true this is our worst nightmare. I dont think temps were the problem.....he never told us his temps or that they were showing any signs of colds? so we cant jump to the conclusions that temps were the factor. I have had Balls down in the low 60s with no problems and that is about the temps I used for the kings and milks in the past.

Just have one of the dead animals checked out and keep us posted.

Pat

Was the test you did on that new boa you bought awhile ago for IBD?

Also, check the snake room for any toxins, Carbon monoxide or dioxide, etc. This could affect your snakes (though if it was a toxic in gas form, it would affect your other snakes as well, not just the boids. Unless the boids are near the floor and the others are higher up. Carbon dioxide is heavy, so won't rise very high off the ground. (ie dried ice produces carbon dioxide when it warms up).

Selecting one or two snakes for a necropsy is worth the cost. Make sure they don't freeze though, as the processes of freezing destroys cell tissues and makes it nearly impossible to test for all possible causes of death.

Sorry to hear of your loss. We infest alot of time and money in our collections and none of us want to wake up to dead and dying snakes for no apparent reason.

It probably be a good ideal to move all your snakes out of that room, just to be sure. If it is some form of air born toxin or gas, it may eventually harm your other snakes. If it is IBD your colubrids should be fine but best to play it safe.
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PHLdyPayne

Well stated..thank for giving him this info.

Pat

Thank you, all.

I can't imagine that it was something like toxic gasses and whatnot. The snakes were all kept in different parts of the room, at different levels and amongst the other snake cages. It did not seem to have affected the others.

I just can't imagine how it could have happened this quickly. All within a matter of hours. It's a nightmare, for sure.

Emptying out the snake room. Moving all surviving snakes to another part of the house, disinfecting everything I can. Kinda walking around in a fog.......

Oh man - i dont have any advice other than what has already been said. But I do want to say how extremely sorry I am for your sudden loses - i cant even imagine what this must be like for you. Keep us updated, and hang there.

First off I am so sorry to hear about your loss. This sort of thing is devistating! Just some food for thought...I work at a vets office and I'd have to say that normal disease related problems usually happen slower in a collection. I'm inclined to go with the idea of something they came in contact with. Any new cleaners used, mop solutions, carpet sprays, airfresheners? Also what about the feeders you use...same source as always? something they could have come in contact with? You'll have to be the detective but to me it sounds like an introduced toxin of some sort. I am very sorry and I hope all the rest stay healthy.
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3.5.0 Beardies
1.2.0 Crested Geckos
1.1.1 Box Turtles
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoise
0.1.0 Russian Tortoise
1.3.0 Ball Pythons
2.1.0 corn snakes
0.1.0 great plains rat snake
1.1.0 Blue Beauty Snakes
1.0.0 Banana King snake
1.0.0 Desert King snake
2.7.0 Guinea Piggies
3.6.0 Dumbo rats
1.0.0 Blue Front Amazon Parrot
0.1.0 Congo African Grey Parrot
1.1.0 house cats
2.0.0 Maine Coon Cats
2.0.0 Boxers

I wouldn't even consider IBD, because IBD has some pretty obvious symptoms. Boas can be a incubator, and it may not necessarily be fatal to them, but Pythons, if infected, still do show symptoms. I would try to do blood work on one or all, and that should give you a better idea of what's going on. I wouldn't rule out virus's, but I would think it was some type of infection that led to renal failure, hence death with no obvious symptoms.

First off I have to say that this is very heart breaking, and I can feel your pain. I lost some snakes a long time ago due to accidental posioning(Inorganic Phosphates). I was so devestated and blamed my self that I stop keeping snakes for almost twenty years. Early this summer I purchased a baby boa for my son and I instantly relized that I had made a huge mistake by giving up on something that I loved so much. I hope that no matter what the reason for your loss, that you keep on keeping snakes.

Jeff

Thanks for these words. I am, indeed, finding myself very discouraged. Yet, deep down, I still love my herps, and hope to never be without them. I know there's rough times when you love anything. Still worth it, no doubt!

Hi ! I am so sorry for your loss . After you get this all figured out and are ready to start over I would like to give you a genetic orange faze garnet ball OK . Just contact me at dsreptiel@hotmail.com . Good luck . David of DS Reptile Rescue .

*chills* Awesome, simply awesome

Thank you all for your kind words and suggestions.

I am in awe of your super kind offer, David of DSReptile. However, I am, at this point, terrified to bring any other snake into my home until I get to the bottom of this!!

I had a horrid day at work. I had it in my head that all my other snakes were writing in pain, and would be dead by the time I got home. I stood at the door to the room where they for several minutes before I got up the guts to go in.

They are all sassy and hungry, and apear to be feeling quite well.

I care deeply about all my snakes, and I try so hard to do right by them. I really feel I have really let them down. I really don't care about the money I have into them. I don't care about the plans I had. (The balls were the only ones I plan to breed this year. I don't think I'll be breeding any snakes for a while.)

I have done everything exactly as I have done it for years. I have never had anything like this happen before. I am still in a fog. It's baffling.

The only thing I can say is if you keep herps long enugh things like this happen. You can do every thing rite and wham!! it happens . I had a ball die and the vet never couldent tell me what happend ,it was in perfict helth. So don't beat your self up over this ,just find out what you can ,lern what you can & go on with that added experience . Agen I'm so sorry for your loss and when you are ready to start over let me know , the offer is good from here on out OK. David

I dont know what a genetic orange faze garnet ball is but if he dont want it ill take it lol. No but seriously do you have a picture of it?

Here you go .

It's so purrrrrdy!

I think you meant granite?

Either way it's a beautiful snake
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

your ball pythons and for how many weeks or months did you keep them at these temperatures?

-Joan

My herp room itself has been at 60 degrees, and I have had very good luck with keeping the python enclosures between 68 and 70. They have been cooled since the first week of October.

>>My herp room itself has been at 60 degrees, and I have had very good luck with keeping the python enclosures between 68 and 70. They have been cooled since the first week of October.
Is it possible that for some time during this three month period the temperatures were closer to 60 than to 70 in your python enclosures?

I really don't think so. I have kept a pretty steady eye on them, and temps have stayed pretty consistant. The ambient room temp stayed steady. I also have a backheated rack in the room kept at 88. It has also stayed consistant.

I think that a hot spot of 68-70 degrees and an ambient temperature of 60 degrees for three months is just pretty rough for ball pythons. I would not subject my animals to those conditions. I read a little of what you've posted in the past, and I know you've had some health issues with some of your animals (haven't we all, at times?). But you must know that only with a necropsy will you have a chance of determining what was going on with those snakes. And yes, even after spending money for a necropsy you may still not know for sure.

I really am sorry for your loss.

-Joan

>>I think that a hot spot of 68-70 degrees and an ambient temperature of 60 degrees for three months is just pretty rough for ball pythons.

I don't think you quite understood what he said. His ball pythons were at an ambient (or at least, cold side temp) of 68-70 degrees, and he had backheated racks with the hot side at 88, which is where I am sure he had his balls. Perfectly acceptable temp ranges.

I am very sorry for your loss, Stryder. Best of luck in finding out what happened!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

Thank you.

Sadly, I do not have a decent herp vet around here. There is a university in this state that has very good fecilities. (I have sent a snake to them for necropsy before.) I do have a vet in this town who, although she knows nothing about reptiles, is willing to help. She has helped me to open up a snake and take tissue samples to be sent off to the lab.

Almost all the snakes had a slight pinkish tinge to at least part of their subcaudal scales. They showed no sighns of stomatitis. So far as we (and our untrained eyes) could see, nothing looked really amiss inside the snake.

There is not much to do now but wait.

Right now, all other snakes seem fine. Frisky, active, and eating great.

a 60 degree room is way too cold for any type of pythons, even with heated enclosures. Way too cold.

I agree, way too cold. Also, my personal experience with back heated racks in a room that drops down to 68 tells me that temps were the cause of death. The rheostats were set to the right temps but when I checked the boxes, they were much colder than the rheostat setting. I covered the sides and back with 2" rigid insulation from Home Depot. That solved the problem but unfortunately I lost a male ghost to a respiratory infection.

I have had a few Balls that escaped one day. I found tham both and they were alive and fine after being missing for months. They were cold but there weight was fine. Both died a few days after I found them. I am pretty sure now that they died because they were heated up to fast. I tried to go slow but I now feel you have to go really slow. They were used to being 50 - 60 degrees. I should have started them out at say 60 for a week and then a few more degrees and so on. I bet it was the shock that killed them and the same with yours.

Not all pythons. I can safely let my ambient room temps get to the low 60's in my chondro room. As long as they're "warmed" back up during the day, there are no problems. They get a daytime high of around 80-82 for the winter. I've done this for years with much success. Would I do it with Balls? No. But not all pythons should be kept "warm/hot" during cooling. Diamonds need a 2-4 month true brumation at 50* in order to stay healthy.

I do agree with you guys, that this was probably the cause of death in these snakes.

Other snakes (pythons included) need different temps to brumate. Balls are tough snakes but don't seem to handle really low temps or quick changes in temps. Makes sence if you consider where they come from and the avaerage temps they stay in the wild.

I have been reading the boards for years and I think I may remember(not 100% sure) a post about snakes dying and they later figured out that the rats/mice they had feed to the snakes had ingested some poison right before they were sent out for sale. So then by the snake eating the prey they also ingested traces of the poison.

Just another thought to consider when ruling out things. How long ago were they feed? did they eat the same as the rest of your snakes that are still alive?
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Misty Sprouse Ball Pythons