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This is Blanca, named so as her background color is pure white, with gold markings. She arrived 5 weeks ago, is a year old and weighed 34 grams, now 5 weeks later she weighs 127 grams and has grown 2 inches. I am hopeful that she may catch up with others her age..... a lovely dragon under there and very nice personality, this is an appreciative dragon. She will make a wonderful pet for someone, but due to her earlier problems and small size, she should never be bred.

I hope you find a nice loving home that will continue the care she has recieved by you. Seems whatever you were doing was working really well. Wow 2 inches and all that weight in 5 weeks at that age. That's super Cheri keep up the good work =) Grimdog posted an update on the ones you sent to him. I'm glad the husbandry changes you guys did for them is paying off. What exactly got changed that they sprouted so much in such a short time?
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Mystical Dragons

This one and one of the ones I sent to Grimdog has came from the same breeder, no known inbreeding, but this breeder believed that dragons did not need UBV light and only supplements with Calcium with D3. We do not see any MDB, just very small dragons, which tells me they were supplemented. They eat salads and crickets which also tells me they were avaiable to them, its hard to get a dragon eating salads if they never had them.

The only change that I know of is they are under Mercury Vapor now (plus some natural sunshine)fed crickets with www.cricketfood.com gutload and given acidophliz +. Some were also treated with one round of Albon as they showed more coccidia than I like to see.

One of the others that Grimdog has was from a female that was bought by another well known breeder online but showed up gravid before she was bred to any of hers. The eggs were fertile so she incubated them and half the clutch has failed to thrive or grow. She believes that the dragon may have bred with a sibling or bred to early as she was young.

Those are not growing much, even thought they are perfect looking little dragons and healthy looking. One of them at 7 months did not even move the grams scale!!! Yet it looks perfect, eats well and appears to be a healthy, active hatchling.... at 8 months old now.

This is a picture of one Grimdog took and the one that did not move the scales

This is something that Dr Tosney believes may be a guide detecting the degree of inbreding in bearded dragons. the lower the breaks and the more of them, the closer the like genetics. Upper breaks she beleives may be indicators of out crossing.

Several of us are following up to disprove or prove that theory, but I can say that we see the multibreaks lower on dragons that are acknowledged as inbred, NEVER see them in dragons that we are 99% sure are not related genetics

I thought it to be, lower breaks = out crossing?

Please correct me but that's how I remembered it.

Joel

BRB

this is a paste from her report.... the full report is on the URL below:

I have begun to suspect that that nice long distance between the tail base and the pattern break might be an indicator of outbreeding, or of good genetic health and general robustness. I think that because some "sickly" hatchlings seem to have a pattern break much closer up the tail to the body, and fail to thrive. Some adults who have been beset by illnesses also have that pattern, suggesting they are less robust than others and need more attention to keep healthy
Copy of Dr Tosney's theory

Good thing I asked, I had it wrong. I'm not saying I buy it or that I can prove it wrong, but I did have it wrong.

Thanks.
Joel

I also took it that the further down the tail, toward the end, means outcrossing.
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God Bless, Beardie Dreams, & Peace!
Pogoniacs™

The theory is:
Further away breaks outcrossing..
Close to tail base, inbreeding..
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TheClassyLizard

I was looking at in upside down, seeing the the lower breaks as the lower to the tail base..... :/ sorry...

IT is the higher up the tail, meaning the close to the tail base not the closer to the tip

IT is the closer the break to the tail base, she thinks are in indicator of inbreding, the further may be an indicator of outcrossing, these babies have them throughout the tail.

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I don't understand about the break in pattern. Can you maybe post pics of one of each for comparison?

Thanks,
Robert

I would like to see comparison pics also

>>I don't understand about the break in pattern. Can you maybe post pics of one of each for comparison?
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>>Thanks,
>>Robert
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

to clarify it what is her theory, this is taken from it, it is only a part of it, please read the whole article:

I have begun to suspect that that nice long distance between the tail base and the pattern break might be an indicator of outbreeding, or of good genetic health and general robustness. I think that because some "sickly" hatchlings seem to have a pattern break much closer up the tail to the body, and fail to thrive. Some adults who have been beset by illnesses also have that pattern, suggesting they are less robust than others and need more attention to keep healthy
Kathryn W. Tosney, Professor of Biology, The University of Michigan

I talk about up the tail as being toward the tip, that is NOT what Kathryn meant when she states closer up the tail as she further states close to the body.

Her theory and if you read the whole article by her that is posted below:

Tail pattern breaks between the tail base and the 5th-6th ring = inbreeding

Lower toward the tip of the tail = may indicate outcrossing

She further points out that this DOES NOT indicates illness or problems in a dragon, just the possible degree of like genetics markers in a given individual dragon.. hence you could have siblings showing perfect tail patterns, or one clutch showing none, another clutch from the same parents showing many or some.

It was stated as a possible guide, all things being equal in a dragon, she would select the one without tail pattern breaks.... even lower towards the tip of the tail that she thinks may indicate outcrossing, would still have past genetic lines of inbreeding.

This pictures shows babies with many tail pattern breaks all along the tails, and they are thought to have been from related parents, an accident of breeding at to early an age before they were separated.

All I can say for sure is dragons that we have examined that have failure to thrive problems almost always have multiple breaks in the tails... that does not mean that all breaks would equate to an ill dragon, just that they may have like genetic markers. But combined with a know illness or defect, it can be a marker as almost all that have problems have tail pattern breaks.

Does that clarify any?

Dr Kathryn Tosney's Tail Break Pattern Theory

I read the whole article before Cheri, I just didn't see a clear explanation as to what a "break" in the tail pattern was. Incomplete circle, circle that meet up, break from the two lines of paterning of the bady into circles? that is what I did not understand.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

The theory refers to the pattern of rings (the narrow light bands) on the tail. I class the ring as the narrow white band.

Ring patterns she is saying is the lighter color bands that circle around the dragons tail. A break is an incomplete circle or an intersected circle, one that does not go completely around the tail

that is what I was thinking. But there are many things going on with the tail of dragons. I wanted to be sure. When a conclusion is being drawn I think the background should stand out a little more.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

or have emailed with her and been in group discussions to get a better understanding of what was meant.

I also first thought it did not float as some siblings have them and others do not and some clutches are loaded with tail breaks and the next one has none..... it took me awhile to understand the like genetic markers in the genes which is random is each sibling.

So the argument that some siblings have none when others do or that they have tail break, but all are healthy is a moot point on her theory, she is not saying that.

Anyone want to take a guess at the percent of dragons in the US that are related within the fifth degree? I think it is much higher than most think and within 10 generations I think it is probably close to 90% share some common ancestors.

Each clutch has variance in tail pattern from the same parents. I wish it was just this easy to tell between outcrossed, and inbreed dragons, but I think it's just not that simple. I believe last time this was brought up Dana Pennebaker from Sundial showed dragons from the same clutch having breaks at different points in the tail. Some would have indicated inbreeding, some perfect, and some outcrossed. Sundial is known for strong healthy hatchlings and outbreeding their lines. Of course you can only trace back lines so far before they all get mixed up, but it is known that they do try hard for strength and purity of genes in their dragons. And since no inbreeding has taken place all should have perfect tails or at least showed outbreeding (breaks towards the tip). I've noticed it more then one occasion in many breeders that do try hard to keep their stock healthy, and also in breeders who have inbred. I think the best we can do is ask questions, know your breeder, and only breed strong healthy dragons to the like, and if you have doubts about a certain dragon don't do it.
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Mystical Dragons

I agree. I just wanted to look at my personal dragons to see if there is any patern, or if it is random as I believe.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I agree with you on that. I have been looking at my babies and trying to see something in each of them.... I come up blank because some have these "tail breaks" and others don't, yet they all came from the same parents. All are healthy and growing like weeds.

>>Each clutch has variance in tail pattern from the same parents. I wish it was just this easy to tell between outcrossed, and inbreed dragons, but I think it's just not that simple. I believe last time this was brought up Dana Pennebaker from Sundial showed dragons from the same clutch having breaks at different points in the tail. Some would have indicated inbreeding, some perfect, and some outcrossed. Sundial is known for strong healthy hatchlings and outbreeding their lines. Of course you can only trace back lines so far before they all get mixed up, but it is known that they do try hard for strength and purity of genes in their dragons. And since no inbreeding has taken place all should have perfect tails or at least showed outbreeding (breaks towards the tip). I've noticed it more then one occasion in many breeders that do try hard to keep their stock healthy, and also in breeders who have inbred. I think the best we can do is ask questions, know your breeder, and only breed strong healthy dragons to the like, and if you have doubts about a certain dragon don't do it.
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>>Mystical Dragons
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

she does not say all inbred dragons have tail break or that all with tail break patterns will be ill or not thrive.

It is unlikely to be a good marker for health on an
individual basis. If you pick a dragon that has irregularities in his tail pattern, that does NOT mean he will be sickly or die.

The hypothesis is that numbers and positions of irregularities can indicate inbreeding. Note, that the hypothesis doesn't predict health of an individual dragon, but it instead may indicate the degree of inbreeding (so that the animal may have more homozygous genes which, depending on the genes, can be a problem).

You would not see it in all babies in a clutch, that would be a million to one possiblity.....she does not say it would indicate ill dragons..... IT MAY INDICATE animal may have more homozygous genes, thats an individual pull from the lottery gene pool for any given animal.

It is seen in ill babies or ones that fail to thrive, they lost the lottery as she beleives that they have more homozygous genes in the gene that factors for the illness or problem, even though sibling may have breaks and be healthy or have no breaks although from the same parents.

Tail break, healthy dragon = inbreed that the homozygous genes are not a problem

Tail breaks with ill dragons = Inbred that the homozygous genes are vital to health so the dragons have probems

Line up 2500 dots and dashes, maybe say 50 will match, but only if 1 of those 50 are in a gene that is vital to a developement, you will have a problem.... the other 49 do not affect the health or wellbeing of the animal

I still think it is a very arm wavy argument, that might warrant further investigation. Not to be posted. You look at clutches of dragons and there are many different things going on with tail pattern. Some will have tail rings all the way up. Some will have broken tail rings. Some have intersecting tail rings. Some don't have tail rings. Some have what seems like two dots like run down the back of most dragons. Too much variations in every clutch. I think if it was an indicator of homozygous genes, then it would be a inheritable gene. If it were an inheritable gene this would muck things up even more. Becuase you can outcross a gene pretty well and still have the capability to reproduce the gene. This could be done with several degrees of seperation with some luck. Also if it is an inheritable trait then it the result of any breeding should be easily predictable. Also if inheritable even if started in an inbreed line it is possible and probably plausible to believe that it could have been outcrossed at some point hence would occur just as often in non inbreed babies. If it isn't inheritable and is more of a random occurance then obviously this whole conversation is for not. I also feel as if, besides in very evident cases, inbreed has not been shown to lead to inability to thrive anymore than improper husbandry has. As I made a case for below. Quick recap for those that didn't read that one.

improper husbandry = lack of apetite = failure to grow and strive
improper husbandry = stressed dragon = weakened immune system
improper husbandry = lack of key vitamins and minerals

lack of vitamins and minerals = weakened immune system
lack of vitamins and minerals = loss of appetite = failure to grow and thrive

weakened immune system = susceptability to parasites and other illness

parasites and illness = loss of appetite = failure to grow

treatment for parasites = sterile gut

sterile gut = loss of appetite = failure to grow and strive
sterile gut = yellow fungus

failure to grow and strive improper husbandry = death

and as bearded dragons become more and more prevelant i believe husbandry practices become worse. Pet shops carrying beardies become more and more. Also more general pet stores carry them, like deathco and deathsmart. At these shops people are more likely to be given the wrong information, leading to improper husbandry. Dragons are also becoming less and less expensive which makes them more of a disposable pet.

I will say that it is possible the the top of my chart could be

inbreeding = weakened immune system

and then the same for there. But we all have stories of people buying dragons from deathco, getting bad information, doing things that we know are very dumb, and then having a dragon damaged beyond repair.Distributors are probably the worst offenders in this matter. Alot of distributors can not properly care for all their animals, or do not care to, resulting in stressed dragons or even worse. I have heard stories of a guy i know that runs a pet shop (he knows what he is doing trust me on that) buying dragons from a distributor and putting them in his store (with proper conditions) and selling the dragons a week or so later. Only to have the dragon drop dead the next day. All of this is a very sad situation. I do not sell dragons to distributors like this. They just don't pay a fair market value. Alot of people do. Don't know how, these people must not be that bright or math competent, or better yet provide crappy care. I guess the moral of this story is that I do NOT believe inbreeding should be blamed for as much as it is. That poor husbandry is at least just as likely to cause problems that we associate with inbreeding.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Also don't advocate it as an acceptable practice.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

LOL I'm not going to go there. I'm just happy they are doing better now. Good to see them getting a better life then they had. Sorry Cheri for making you go there, lol Have a nice. night
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Mystical Dragons

very pretty girl, hope she finds a good loving home

>>This is Blanca, named so as her background color is pure white, with gold markings. She arrived 5 weeks ago, is a year old and weighed 34 grams, now 5 weeks later she weighs 127 grams and has grown 2 inches. I am hopeful that she may catch up with others her age..... a lovely dragon under there and very nice personality, this is an appreciative dragon. She will make a wonderful pet for someone, but due to her earlier problems and small size, she should never be bred.
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reiko
photos

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God Bless, Beardie Dreams, & Peace!
Pogoniacs™

She's so sweet. She looks like a mini Daisy..Send her on over..
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TheClassyLizard

She is very pretty! I hope you find a great home for her. Someone to love and spoil her

>>This is Blanca, named so as her background color is pure white, with gold markings. She arrived 5 weeks ago, is a year old and weighed 34 grams, now 5 weeks later she weighs 127 grams and has grown 2 inches. I am hopeful that she may catch up with others her age..... a lovely dragon under there and very nice personality, this is an appreciative dragon. She will make a wonderful pet for someone, but due to her earlier problems and small size, she should never be bred.
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com