Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, another annual vacation in Orlando has almost come to an end. I've seen sliders, cooters, Florida softshells and even an alligator! But no boxies, again! I have never seen a boxie in the wild here. What would be the most likely habitates to find any kind of boxie in Florida?

It's too late for this year, we are leaving early tomorrow morning, but I'm curious for next year.
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Even though (to my understanding) Floridians can only keep two of these box turtles and they can't legally be sold or sent out of state, people outside Florida can keep (or sell) many more.

There is reason to suspect that T c baurii is still leaving the state in some numbers each year... perhaps part of the reason why you aren't seeing any?

If you want to see lots of these animals, don't go to Florida, go to the classifieds here on ks.

have not seen one in south florida in over a year except dead on the road as their trying to flee the heavy equipment leveling their habitat and yes the rest are in the classifieds it would take me ten years to see that many unless i had a dog to sniff them out and i live in woods

I've been watching the classifieds for a while now too. I am looking for a male Florida for my female, (I've been bitten by the hatchling bug after my female surprised me with eggs this summer)but I don't want a wild caught.

I am amazed that all this person seems to have to do is post the wanted message on every Reptile forum known and people are willing to go and find and sell them for what ever pitance price she pays. I feel sorry for anyone who has a real pet that sells to her because she always posts that she'll send photos of where they will live. She doesn't mention it will only be until she resells them!

Sorry for ranting,

Oh oh! I hadn't meant to open this can of worms, but I think it's a good thing I did! It actually makes me sick to my stomach thinking of all those poor boxies getting kidnapped/fleeing from their territory!

We must keep up this conversation so folks know to avoid people like the one in the classified. But really, that is the easy problem to solve.

People like me, I guess, must take some of the reponsiblity too. Afterall, I stayed in a condo and golfed the golf course. Those places may well have been boxie territory. If not boxie, then some other animal's home! Even if not for recreational wants, people still need homes, places to work, grocery stores, etc. I don't know what the answer is there, or even IF there is an answer!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

To give a direct answer to your question now, I have seen one Florida box turtle in the wild. The location was a bit north of Daytona, about six and a half years ago. Wonderful coastal live oak and saw palmetto closed canopy forest with occasional cabbage palmetto stands. A true fairy tale setting. Gopher tortoise burrows were a rare occurrence along the margins, and a freshwater ditch ran along one side of the forest. While I was there (in March 2000), a huge hailstorm ( !!! ) struck and that night every southern toad in the region was in that ditch – so many brown and red chunklets that you’d swear a brick house had been bombed.

The box turtle was a very old male – most of the pattern was faded out from the bowling ball-smooth shell, which was bubbled and scarred from fire. When I found this guy, half of the forest had already been formatted for the golf coarse this quickly growing beachside community couldn’t live without. Two years later I learned the remainder had been “completed” .

I throw that out there since you hint at recognizing the irony of your screen name with regard to asking about box turtles in Florida. People who sell these animals, legal or not, aren’t at all a problem – they’re a mere symptom of a problem.

what if no box turtle over 4 inches could be sold wild caught adults might be left alone what if breeders could collect wild adults before they build that golf course there is always solutions if it is not to late leave them in florida and relese a pecentage of the breeders hatchings back on protected land or we could watch them dissaper

The people selling in the classifieds must be looking for the quick buck. I've been looking for a (1.1) and hatchlings for awhile. If I get adults, I'm not going to resell them. And won't buy without pictures to choose from. I contact the sellers soon after they advertise. Most of them I don't even get a response. Some I hear back after a few days and say they will send pictures. Some never do or send the same bad pictures from their ad. After waiting a few days longer, I'll send another e-mail politly requesting the pictures. They might respond and say, "Well we have a couple left. I'll try and take pictures today."

They are obviously selling them and don't mind spending the money to advertise. Now a days if you are going to sell over the internet, I think you should have good pictures if you expect to sell to good people- not tiny pictures or blurry pictures.

Thanks for reading my venting-
Kevin

Ya know, I think I know the area to which you refer! We have spent many vacations in that area, near Flagler Beach. I was there for a day this year also.

The changes in that area in the last several years is stunning (I actually can't think of a word strong enough to convey my meaning here!)One can hardly guess where in the world all those people came from!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Florida Box Turtles are declining due to a myriad of reasons.

You may even receive a reward. I believe the state of Georgia also has similar or even more severe penalities for removing Florida Box Turtles from their state.

Report a Florida Wildlife Violation  1-888-404-FWCC
WILDLIFE ALERT REWARD PROGRAM
If you suspect a wildlife law violation, report it to the FWC Wildlife Alert Reward Program.
1-888-404-FWCC (3922)

Ric K.

See more info on link below.

Link

Thanks! I bookmarked that link!
Many times it is just a matter of getting the right information into the hands of the right people to make a difference.

"I throw that out there since you hint at recognizing the irony of your screen name with regard to asking about box turtles in Florida."

On the other hand, there is an abundance of wild life on golf courses, I've even seen endangered species. Anyone who lives or works in a permenant structure, drives a car, and/or creates waste is part of the problem. It is a far reaching problem with no easy answers.

"what if breeders could collect wild adults before they build that golf course there is always solutions if it is not to late leave them in florida and relese a pecentage of the breeders hatchings back on protected land"

gussler certainly has some good suggestions. They are fairly easy and low cost things that would help.

streamwalker's info should be very helpful also, thanks!

I think even just talking about it and raising awareness like this, is a step (albeit a small step) in the right direction!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Yes, but golf courses are certainly considerably lower on the totem pole of life's necessities (permanent shelters and transportation so that one can make a living to survive certainly take precedence, along with the inherent waste produced). So long as one can manage his/her own ecological footprint, then involvement in these activities need not be considered part of the problem (there is a certain amount of resources that each person can utilise at a sustainable rate). Frivolities that require habitat destruction/alteration are definitely a problem. Sure, if I had to choose between a golf course and a subdivision, I would take the golf course, but it is merely the lesser of two evils.
Watch out for scorpions in the 18th hole (for the Hiaasen fans out there)
P.S. My predisposed aversion to golf courses is part of the package of being a conservation ecologist, so please forgive me. My entire family enjoy the game and it seems every one of my friends went to school for golf course management... ah well...

We've drifted off topic somewhat but here goes.
Land use/density issues would be a place to start...
We are spreading out and using viable farmland and forest to create subdivisions and shopping centers that take up way too much space. Extremely wasteful.
In the process we've created an environment that is not healthy for humans, either. People don't walk anywhere anymore, and most suburban 'communities' aren't conducive to social interaction, because these places are designed around the needs of automobiles and not people.

How many of us would live where we live if we didn't have a car?

>>On the other hand, there is an abundance of wild life on golf courses, I've even seen endangered species. Anyone who lives or works in a permenant structure, drives a car, and/or creates waste is part of the problem. It is a far reaching problem with no easy answers.

You have a point there. I don't golf but DH does, he's always telling me about this or that animal he's seen on a golf course.
There's several of them here, the public one has a pond that's loaded with turtles.
We may be wasteful as a species & there are no easy answers but I've noticed that there is a lot of wildlife that benefits from our structures.. especially birds. Barn swallows cover the roadway bridges & I think why is because it's such a stable nesting spot as opposed to a tree.
We destroy habitat but on the other hand a lot of animals do adapt well to it...
Ahhhh what can you do?
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PHRatz

Golf courses aren't conducive habitats for box turtles. Anything can turn up on a golf course, but these places don't foster life events in most species that would have lived naturally in the given area. One or two sightings of an endangered species doesn't change that.

Repatriation of box turtles is not supported by any results, anywhere. Wild box turtles (especially Floridas) are too commercially viable to release rather than sell. There is no need to release captive-produced offspring into a protected area. If a habitat is truly safe, it won't need us to pump more turtles in. Pumping turtles into habitat of unknown safety is one of those band-aids that falls off after five minutes of wear.

Well i might as well drop in on this one. I was in florida for the 4th of july at my friends gradparents retirment village. It was huge and had 2 golf courses in it. i was there for a week and counted well over 100 gopher tortoise and around 75 florida box turtles. I have pictures of them on my computer at home.

Maybe the solution is to get and release these turtles in old people villages. The only people allowed in are old people, they drive slower then the turtles and they all have gardens that the turtles go to for an easy snack.
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I'm CrazyCody KadunkKadunk!!!

Kadunk was here

CrazyCody

>>Golf courses aren't conducive habitats for box turtles. Anything can turn up on a golf course, but these places don't foster life events in most species that would have lived naturally in the given area. One or two sightings of an endangered species doesn't change that.

True...
I'm seeing the destruction of their habitat right out my front door. We've lived here since 1992, we've always looked out the door to see undisturbed landscape then all of a sudden out of nowhere this is now a popular housing development site. I can't see anything out my front door today except newly built houses.
I wonder what's going to become of the boxies out there now.

I don't know what has caused this but this winter we have so many coyotes around us, I can hear them some evenings in the ally behind my house. Since 1992 I have never heard them so close, I knew they were out there but before the building began I always heard them at a fairly long distance.
But now they are so close and I hear so many... could it be that the development has caused them to move in closer? Perhaps the new houses have destroyed their homes so they're wandering around our area looking for new homes?
I don't know but the weenie dog puppy we got in June does not ever go outside after dark by himself.
It's a shame because we really enjoyed the neighborhood not having a very large population of people.. now when I go out at night instead of nature I hear kids yelling, music playing, engines revving.
Ok I'm whining now but really when spring rolls around this year.. I wonder what I'll see or not see as far as wild boxies go.
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PHRatz

Heyya PH, wake up and embrace your humanity! You were the first in a wave. A homesteader.

I saw this happen to one of the nicest three-toed localities I've ever known. Nice valley with a stream through the base. Then, a couple people decide they wanted nice isolated homes here and there along the top hill ridges. That wasn't great, but it didn't seem detrimental in and of itself.

But, it was only the first step. Within six years two more rows of homes undercut the original ring, and today, the valley is a neighborhood. Scenic homes break ground for neighborhoods. What was your home before it was a home?

Where new neighborhoods abut more habitat, we can get subsidized wildlife - the opposite of box turtles. I'd bet those coyotes aren't running FROM development, but FOR development. They're going for reasons like little baby poochie, or kitten, or refuse, as they have throughout the east. Racoons, opossums, foxes and so on are the like. It's a double whammie with those latter species, since they're turtle nest raiding experts. They never did so well without us. Turtles have never done so poorly.

>>Where new neighborhoods abut more habitat, we can get subsidized wildlife - the opposite of box turtles. I'd bet those coyotes aren't running FROM development, but FOR development. They're going for reasons like little baby poochie, or kitten, or refuse, as they have throughout the east. Racoons, opossums, foxes and so on are the like. It's a double whammie with those latter species, since they're turtle nest raiding experts. They never did so well without us. Turtles have never done so poorly.
>>

hmmm that's interesting info. We do have foxes too & they DO walk the top of our fence, they get into the yard.. skunks are terrible about raiding turtle nests too. We used to get skunks in the yard but after building the new fence in 2004 they haven't found a way in again.
As for turtles.. I think most people or at least people who don't care anything about wildlife think of them as no more important than a fly so if they kill one it doesn't matter.
It's a real shame.
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PHRatz

I have started to realize that many people look at open undeveloped spaces, whether woods, desert, or meadow, and just see lack of development.
I really don't think that they think of trees as living things (for example), or a forest as a thriving 'megalopolis' where a multitude of creatures make their homes. Same with a prairie or desert: these places are just empty spaces in the eyes of many.

>>I have started to realize that many people look at open undeveloped spaces, whether woods, desert, or meadow, and just see lack of development.
>>I really don't think that they think of trees as living things (for example), or a forest as a thriving 'megalopolis' where a multitude of creatures make their homes. Same with a prairie or desert: these places are just empty spaces in the eyes of many.

I think you are right about that. On the one hand we are part of nature ourselves & we do need homes to live in.. we have to live on this planet too.... but why we can't do more to balance that out is beyond me. I think it's all about dollars.

I may have been a homesteader but we bought this place for a song & a dance because this area's developer had gone bankrupt when the price of oil crashed & whoever had lived in our place was long gone. Our place had been empty for 8 years before we got here.
Then for years it all stayed the same.. then the price of oil went up & now this area is booming again. Not enough houses for all the people moving in.
Now that the US government is changing once again it'll all go bust once again. Oil goes up & down depending on who's in power so our lives here go up & down with it.
It wouldn't surprise me to eventually see these new houses empty once everybody loses their jobs again... so the humans will be hurting & so will the box turtles & it will all have been for nothing.
We'll be sitting here looking at what should have remained our undisturbed landscape wishing it were still that way!
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PHRatz

I agree that humans need a place to live, too, but I don't think it has to be the way it's done now, using the sprawling suburban template. It's more about $$$ than actual need.

Another side effect of this is that most people don't know what to do with all their susburban 'space' once they have it.

I see this ALOT as a landscape designer: people move to the suburbs looking for more 'space' but end up with little privacy, no sense of community with their neighbors, they don't use their yards, they don't want the trouble or expense of maintaining a garden/lawn (everyone wants 'low or no maintenance'), covenants require certain types of homogenized plantings or a certain amount of lawn, or forbid composting and vegetable gardening, so everything looks the same, etc., etc..

Perceptions don't necessarily match up to reality.

>>I see this ALOT as a landscape designer: people move to the suburbs looking for more 'space' but end up with little privacy, no sense of community with their neighbors, they don't use their yards, they don't want the trouble or expense of maintaining a garden/lawn (everyone wants 'low or no maintenance'), covenants require certain types of homogenized plantings or a certain amount of lawn, or forbid composting and vegetable gardening, so everything looks the same, etc., etc..
>>
>>Perceptions don't necessarily match up to reality.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean here. Gated communities, homeowners associations.. perfectly manicured lawns that they hire people to manicure for them...thankfully we aren't part of that.
Our lawn is full of weeds & since we adopted the sulcata I cultivate the weeds so we'll have even more. That's tortoise food & since people can't see in anymore, hopefully our across the street Wicked Witch won't notice how weedy we are over here.

One thing I like about our neighborhood at least on our street is that everybody has what I call a backlot. We all have an acre, nobody uses their backlots except for those who have horses.
So ours is just bare- natural land space & if we didn't HAVE to mow it we wouldn't but since we're in the city limits if we don't mow we'll get threats from the city to do so or pay a heavy fine.
A couple of summers ago DH was out mowing the backlot.. he stopped, came in the house told me to c'mere.
I went out & in 3 different spots 3 wild box turtles were halfway burrowed in the ground to escape the heat. That was a really cool thing to see. Of course he had to stop mowing then but got that done another day.
I just HOPE that we continue to see things like that for a long time to come.
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PHRatz

On more point here:

My dad owned/ran a surveyor/engineering company for over 50 years. Now my 2 brothers own/run it. All three of them say the main cause of suburban sprawl is zoning laws. Lots must be so big, have so many feet set back, so many feet from the side of the house to the property line, houses must be so many square feet, etc.
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Your father and brothers are correct. Yup, zoning laws are one of the things at the root of the sprawl problem, and developers influencing the zoning/planning officials. Frequently, if you dig deep enough, you'll find that the county officials ARE the developers, or have a financial stake in the developments.
That's what I was referring to when I mentioned land use and density issuesin an earlier post(without mentioning zoning specifically).

I hardly ever see box turtles here in FL. In 2006 I found 2 box turtle shells, and 2 live box turtles, though I was not at any point specifically looking for them. This one I saw last month (December) out on the crawl:

There are some areas where they are still common, though I will not give them out. They used to be common here in the Tampa Bay area, but development has reduced them to living in small numbers in nature parks, and in large enough tracts of whatever remaining undeveloped land we have around here. On the whole, I don't think collection for the pet trade has hurt their populations significantly. It doesn't help, but if box turtles are to be kept from extinction in FL, their habitat needs to be protected and development has to stop. Development will never stop.

Development makes fragmented populations, and collection of remaining animals can become a problem. As habitat becomes more accessible and less stable, and nature's restocking routes from adjacent areas are plowed under, remaining "populations" can crash.

I've always thought it's neat that there's always been a number of people on the ks forum (even before there was a forum just for box turtles) who seem to appreciate wild box turtles even more than captive ones. Way more people like that here than you'd find on a colubrid forum, but we still need many more before collectors are dismissed as a strong threat.

"I've always thought it's neat that there's always been a number of people on the ks forum (even before there was a forum just for box turtles) who seem to appreciate wild box turtles even more than captive ones. Way more people like that here than you'd find on a colubrid forum, but we still need many more before collectors are dismissed as a strong threat."

As have I. I'm having computer problems, but I wanted to drop a note while I'm at a wireless location. Casichelydia, you once loaded a picture of some pristine Rana sylvatica (NA Wood frog) habitat in your album. As a tremendous fan of the Wood frog, I stumbled across the picture. Someone has posted a comment that read something like, "That would make a great parking lot." Along the lines of what you said, this is the kind of thing you run across on some other forum sites and pages. I really couldn't believe that someone would take the time to post something like that...I'm happy to know that it almost never occurs on this forum.

Florida box turtles are still common in many areas of Florida. The problem, when searching for them, is that they have an extremely small window of activity, both daily and seasonally. Don't expect to just "stumble" across one. You really have to make a concerted effort not only to locate their habitat, but to find individuals that aren't dug in near saw palmetto or some other dense structure. If you arrive even minutes too early or late, you're out of luck. Plus, the raidating pattern that makes them so beautiful also makes them nearly invisible in the proper setting. Weather conditions are the key(assuming that a population exists), and that's something that many casual herpers don't factor in. I don't want to be too specific. In fact, this attribute may be one thing that saves them from even more wild collection than is currently taking place.

As both a wild turtle fanatic and a keeper, I toe a fine line. I think that common sense is really what needs protection and conservation. If any of you have the time and the means, try to search for information on Project Bog Turtle in the Southeast. Their common sense approach to conservation of the Southeastern Bog turtle has been a wonderful experience for nearly all involved, from turtle to landowner. Of course, with a species like the Florida Box turtle which typically has a much larger home range than a Bog turtle, it gets more difficult.

Wow RMB! Not only are those fantastic photos as usual, but I've never seen sylvatica as colorful as those first two...stunning! As a kid herping in PA, I used to go downright bananas when I'd stumble across a Wood frog. There's just something about them...simplistic and elegant. Plus, the range in which they inhabit is freakishly immense! Thanks for sharing...leave it to me to get this most serious of topics OFF of topic.

>>Plus, the raidating pattern that makes them so beautiful also makes them nearly invisible in the proper setting.

Here's something I think is kinda interesting! DH and I were out in the woods one summer day. He spotted 2 Eastern Boxies that I would never have seen. Even when he pointed out where one was, I practically stepped on it before I saw it.

DH is very color blind! I wonder if'n that makes it easier for him to see them?
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
0.1.0 Flemish giant (rabbit)
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband