Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone guess what this is?

Y'all Enjoy Now!
Our Website!

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Indian? The "donuts" make me think indian, but that belly looks odd, like an oketee corn...if I guess right do I win one of your amazing hybrids? JUST Kidding.

Let me guess:

rock x burm?
indian x burm?
burm x ceylonese?
surinam x peruvian redtail boa?
columbian x brazilian rainbow boa?
eastern x black kingsnake?
jungle x coastal carpet?
black x texas ratsnake?

or maybe it's some other world-shattering cross that takes years and an unimaginable amount of luck and effort to produce.

Pert Darn Close, lol

It's kinda funny, in the last several years I have gotten a LOT of feedback about our amazing hybrid morphs and incredible albino hybrid morphs. I have gotten mostly praise and admiration-based feedback, by the more positive-minded herpers with obviously very unbiased, optimistim-oriented minds. Roughly 90%.

And then I have also received a small amount of open-faced, negative criticism and also well-intended constructive criticism from hybrid cynics. The vast majority of the "negative" criticism is well-balanced, mostly logical, observational comments from still positive-minded herpers that either just don't find hybrids very appealing or that feel pure-blooded species are threatened somehow by the interspecie-breeding. The miniscule minority of negative feedback is often from folks that seem to like criticizing anything that they don't have or can't produce. This tiny minority is the only group that tends to post the opinion that what we do is simple and easy.

That being said, regardless of any praise or criticism, I have yet to see anyone anywhere producing what we produce here every year. If it's so easy to do and so simple one would think that more folks would be producing them. Ey?

Thanks so much for y'all's input BoaPro. As always we welcome and respect all opinions from every viewpoint. If you ever produce anything remotely like our hybrids I would be very interested in seeing some pics of them

Y'all take care now.
Our Website!

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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

I'll take a guess, Hybrid Rock/Burmese dbl Het Albino & Granite?

Derek

Very dog-gone close. You basically got it but you got the wrong het morph content.

Still, give that large man a large cigar.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Hybrid Rock/Burmese dbl Het Albino & Green?

Derek

DING DING DING DING!!!
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

to start a heated exchange, but when I saw that you listed P. molurus from India and Sri Lanka (Ceylon) as one of your guesses for this hybrid, it got me thinking and I had to make a comment. I am not overly opposed to the hybridization of different species of snakes as they are in the vast majority of cases, easily visually identified as such. However, I am concerned about the hybridization of two subspecies of the same species. This is especially so when one or both of the pairing is rare or endangered, as for example between the three forms of molurus. Crosses between the burmese and indian molurus subspecies with the Sri Lanka form are the most disturbing. Sri Lanka molurus are by far the most endangered, and crossing them with any of the other subspecies of molurus should be avoided at all costs. Once they have been genetically mixed, it becomes very difficult to then distinguish the offspring from the pure forms. Additionally, these intergrades could then easily and inadvertently be assimilated into the breeding program of others not familiar with or experienced enough to identify the subtle differences of these intergrades. This would then be disastrous to any breeding program trying to maintain the purity of this most rare form. As there is obviously nothing regulating this practice, it is up to us as responsible individuals to regulate ourselves and not engage in these practices that once undertaken, can never be reversed. There are so few pure Sri Lanka specimens still around as many have already been genetically diluted with other molurus subspecies. Additionally, it is obvious that you will never see any more individuals removed from Sri Lanka and enter any of the private collections here in the U. S. Hopefully, in the future, mtDNA analysis can be utilized to determine the genetic purity of selected individuals in U. S. collections.

Kelly

Hi Kelly, hope all is going well for you. I am in complete agreement with your comments and have the exact same concerns (not only with Molurus but other species as well....try to find a pure good 'ol fashioned, normal corn snake and you'll probably find that its much harder than it seems). Many private individuals bash AZA accredited facilities, however, these facilities are very carefully managed and they work and network very well in managing SSP's and other important programs. Sure, they are not perfect, but they are managed very well. Hopefully, as technology improves, we can get quick mtDNA analaysis and readings so that folks wishing to purchase certain animals can make sure they are getting genetically pure individuals. I don't have an answer on how to do damage control since most captive populations of herps amongst the private sector is very poorly managed (each breeder probably keeps fairly good records but there isn't a nationwide consortium which would be neat to see).

Take care, Rob

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>to start a heated exchange, but when I saw that you listed P. molurus from India and Sri Lanka (Ceylon) as one of your guesses for this hybrid, it got me thinking and I had to make a comment. I am not overly opposed to the hybridization of different species of snakes as they are in the vast majority of cases, easily visually identified as such. However, I am concerned about the hybridization of two subspecies of the same species. This is especially so when one or both of the pairing is rare or endangered, as for example between the three forms of molurus. Crosses between the burmese and indian molurus subspecies with the Sri Lanka form are the most disturbing. Sri Lanka molurus are by far the most endangered, and crossing them with any of the other subspecies of molurus should be avoided at all costs. Once they have been genetically mixed, it becomes very difficult to then distinguish the offspring from the pure forms. Additionally, these intergrades could then easily and inadvertently be assimilated into the breeding program of others not familiar with or experienced enough to identify the subtle differences of these intergrades. This would then be disastrous to any breeding program trying to maintain the purity of this most rare form. As there is obviously nothing regulating this practice, it is up to us as responsible individuals to regulate ourselves and not engage in these practices that once undertaken, can never be reversed. There are so few pure Sri Lanka specimens still around as many have already been genetically diluted with other molurus subspecies. Additionally, it is obvious that you will never see any more individuals removed from Sri Lanka and enter any of the private collections here in the U. S. Hopefully, in the future, mtDNA analysis can be utilized to determine the genetic purity of selected individuals in U. S. collections.
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>>Kelly
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"Many private individuals bash AZA accredited facilities, however, these facilities are very carefully managed and they work and network very well in managing SSP's and other important programs."

...which is one of the big reasons that AZA accredited facilities will not take in strays, no longer wanted pets, or anything else from the public (or other non AZA accredited facilities)

... Wow! Proof that I do listen to my wife on rare occasion (a card carrying AZA member...)
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Rescued Ball Python - Apep
0-0-1 Rescued Bearded Dragon - Zeus
0-0-1 Rescued Non-Alpha Green Iguana - Bud
1-2-0 Rescued Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet, Isis
0-0-1 Rescued Fit and Trim Panda Hamster - Mr. Fluffy
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

with a registry called ACR.

"each breeder probably keeps fairly good records but there isn't a nationwide consortium which would be neat to see)."
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

i have kept both burmese and african rock in the past and both are great species to be kept in captivity.

but for the last 3 or so years i have been keeping and have the intension of breeding my p.m.molurus (indian python).

i work in a reptile shop here in the uk and i get lot's of people asking question's about the burm's we have on show here at the shop, i have taken it upon my self to place pictures of the other molurus family to show the difference in pattern ect... and people are amazed at the difference from specie to specie.
under the photo's of molurus and pimbura i have boldly writen "Endangered in the wild" and people ask me even more about these 2 great species rather than the ever popular burmese.

i will admit that some cross/hybid breeding can result in some great looking animal's but have to ask,

Why mess about with the genes of an Endangered species ???

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19 years in the hobbie/business.
in my personal collection at present;
1:2 p.m.molurus
1:2 chondro python viridis
1:1 dasypeltis medici

and for the clarification. I meant to add your point, and I should have made it clearer, that I am also concerned for all species that are in this situation. As far as AZA, I fully agree with you and they have definitely taken the lead in species conservation programs. I was a member of the AAZPA (now the AZA) in the late 70's and early 80's when the SSP program was just beginning. That was also when they were using the relatively new at that time, ISIS species data management system. What I am really interested in, as far as Sri Lanka molurus are concerned, is the possibility of setting up a type of studbook program for them, modeled after the system that the AZA uses for their studbook program. Like the nationwide system you spoke of. Currently, there is no SSP program or studbook program for either of the two endangered molurus. The problem obviously would be proving the genetic integrity of the initial entrants into the program. Unless this could be accomplished, the usefulness of the project would be limited. The mtDNA analysis would be the only way, but the cost would be prohibitive unless sponsors or a University could be located that would have interest. Something to think about. Hope everything is running smoothly at the center. Take care,

Kelly