Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, I have been reading a few posts on here about feeding, and over feeding, and if there is such thing. I have a sub adult BT, with a basking spot of 133* SVL. Is it true she can eat a daily diet of rodents and/or chicken/turkey parts, without risk of obesity? I try to do what FR says about listening to my monitor, and giving it what IT wants, not what I think it needs. We all know she can eat a heap of food probably 3 times a day, if I let her. She usually looks for food once a day. I guess my questions are, do I feed her until she refuses on a daily basis, cause that appears to be what she wants? Is that healthy, with a hot basking area? How hot is too hot? How do I know if she desires a hotter temp for basking?

Thanks

You feed your monitor, you feed it based on your goals, and of course its goals. You say you have a female, under normal temps(for it) It will feed and grow, then it will feed until it builds(stores) the energy it needs to reproduce. Then it will use all energy to continue to reproduce. That is their design. That is what they do.

If an individual gets fat, you then try to figure out why. The Why is not always because it feeds to much, but in most cases, one or more other poor husbandry conditions cause it to get fat. For instance, if its warm enough to feed, but not warm enough to use its energy for growth and reproduction(takes X amount of heat plus energy) It will then store the energy as fat. That fat is suppose to be used when the weather heats up again. Only in captivity, the keepers forget to heat it up again. So they get obesely fat.

Of if you feed a poor diet, like turkey, turkey is not a normal balanced prey item, its a partial food. These predators are designed to consume whole prey items. When you offer parts of a prey item, the monitor can and do store it as fat, instead of using it. Again waiting to gain the needed balance at a future date. Of course it can be done, but if your here asking these questions, your not ready to feed convienent foods, feed whole items, until understand whats needed and when.

If you feed an unbalanced diet, you again can influence whether your monitor gets fat or grows and reproduces.

Now what to look for. If your monitor is not progressing how YOU want it too. Remember we all have different ideas of what fat is. You make adjustments to fit what YOU want.

For instance, I have looked inside enough monitors to fully understand, that even a skinny monitor has lots and lots of fat. A normal appearing monitor in most folks eyes, has lots and lots of fat. Maybe 25% of its total weight. A fat appearing monitor, the fat will indeed outweight the monitor. If you do not believe me, find a dead fat monitor and cut it open, the amount of fat will indeed scare you.

Also consider, monitors do not use the same schedule as keepers. In fact, the most commonly kept monitors(african) are normally boom and bust. That is, they eat like pigs in the wet, and starve in the dry. Remember, their season of non feeding, IS THE HOTTEST. as in, not winter. Of course they do not quit feeding if they find suitable areas, like rivers(niles) or farmlands. Then they continue to feed and produce even more and faster. So, feeding every three days, four days, everyother day, once a week, is totally silly. They have no idea what that means. To them it means, theres not enough food so they convert it to fat. Then conserve energy. In simple terms, its a deadend method.

Your job as a MONITOR keeper is to make decisions, not follow guidelines. This is why the monitor world is so backwards, they do not want to make decisions. None of this is hard or critical, unless you wait WAY TO LONG. If its getting fat, adjust to your goals. If its skinny, feed it. If its hungry, feed it, unless its exceeded your goals. If you starve it for a purpose, its not the same as starving it out of ignorance. By the way, monitors are genius at not loosing weight. hahahahahahahahaha.

So, if you want to act in a smart way, feed only whole food items. If you want to see your monitor act smart give it a wide range of conditions and watch it make its own decisions.

When you do that, it makes your decisions, little tiny ones. It actually turns you into a servant, you task becomes only providing things, not making important decisions. Remember, the monitors are happy to make them for you. You just need to allow it. Cheers

Do you find these types of things to apply to all reptiles? Like providing as much as they will eat as long as they have a wide enough gradient of choices in heat and humidity? Also, do you think that providing as much food as they want to eat and "rapid" growth leads to a shorter lifespan?

I ask because I tried introducing some of these methods (and some others used on monitors and by Robyn on uros, like 24/7 basking options and much wider options in humidity than were provided, as well as some others) to the uro forum on RZ. They were immediately shot down (I think partially out of being stubborn).

Thanks,
Ryan

I used this method long long long long long long, before I kept monitors.

I learned it from watching wild reptiles over the last fifty years. For instance, RETES boards=trashpiles.

Their(all reptiles) daily life(when active) is nothing more then a constant series of decisions. As the enviornment changes, minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day, season to season, they make new decisions. They make decisions based on prey species abundance and timing. You know, what prey is available when. They make decisions based on how much rain there has been.

Yet People treat reptiles like they are brainless. And folks wonder why I get mad at times. These folks get made because I allow my monitors to be successful. Do you understand that, I do almost nothing. I only allow them to do what they do. Dang they are good at it.

The methods I use for monitors were not in anyway developed for monitors. They were indeed developed with other reptiles, long ago.

By the way, I have world first breedings with many species of colubrid snakes and several second and thirds with pythons. Using the very same methods(again so long ago).

Oh and I bred prehensile tailed skinks, for 15 years using this method. Recieved 15 babies in 15 years, not bad.(started when they first came in, a long time ago)

So yes, everything I do with monitors was developed elsewhere and a long time ago.

Thats why the longtime varaphiles do not like me. I came and turned their world upside down, not using anything they had developed. So I was quickly thrown out. hahahahahahahahahahaha Yep they are still struggling to even see a copulation.

I do go to the kingsnake forum and poke at them. Because all those kingsnakes started with this approach. But funny thing happened on the way to the forum. They have no idea now. Cheers

I completely agree with you. In many ways, reptiles are smarter than us. One of those ways is knowing what they want and need SO much better than we do or think we do. Therefore, it is our main job as keepers to provide a wide enough range of options for them to make their choices in. That is basic reptle husbandry. I guess that one reason (another being size and therefore food intake/caging) some reptiles are better suited as captives for beginners is that they are less demanding in needs of gradients in temperature and humidity.

Do you feel that "overfeeding" and "rapid" growth cause an overall shorter lifespan in reptiles? I've seen that you have raised monitors to well over 20 years of age and over their predicted lifespans (and I am sure that you have had similar results in other reptiles), so I doubt that you do. I feel that they would grow and eat at these same rates in the wild if it were not for the unfavorable conditions that the wild presents that prevent feeding, activity, and growth. I think that they would also reproduce constantly in the wild if it were not for these conditions.

I also wonder what your feeling are on UVB needs in reptiles, particularly completely herbivorous ones. I mostly am curious about your feelings on the oral intake of d3.

Thanks,
Ryan

S.

Missing the obvious. My monitors, have rapid growth, not necessarily from overfeeding. Wait, what the hack is overfeeding, and what the heck is rapid growth. Those are questions you and those "theys" need to answer.

Back, your missing the point, I am the butt of their statements of overfeeding and rapid growth. Yet I have older monitors, bigger monitors(per species) that out produce, out live, out behave, out everything, those who say those things. So simply put, those statements are a little narsissistic(self-centered) As those statements appear to be excuses for their animals not growing or reproducing or living long fruitful lifes. This behavior is common here with beginers to old timers to academics.

You can tell I have fun fighting with those beanheads and there is reason. The EXACT same thing happened in the late sixties to early 70's. I had snakes achieve the very same things. I had them grow fast, multiclutch, etc. and I had the very same terms thrown at me by the very same types of people. In fact, at an IHS meeting in Phoenix in the seventies, A PHD from the National zoo was giving a talk of Cal kings, he had done some good work and was reporting it. He said, cal kings reach sex maturity in 3 to 5 years. While there was nothing wrong with that, I have just had my first calking reach sexual maturity and produce offspring at 9 months of age.

While I enjoyed this talk, it was old before it left the shelf. Of course its common for snakes to reproduce at 18 months now, unheard of then.

My results were, my longest lived snake was 35 years, the daddy of the very first albino cal kings. Yes they are my work. With females commonly multiclutching 18 or so years, and still produce after that, and will live as long as you see fit to keep them alive. I did the same with pythons too. Breeding them at 18 months or less an experincing high and consisitant success rates.

So yes, this varanid thing is old hat and fun, as they were a far better canidate for freedom of choice, then those early types. They took to it far better and far faster.

For instance, My first group of monitors was 8 ackies, in 1991, they were near hatchlings. Within 9 months, I had killed off thirty eggs(dumb nesting) and had over 100 eggs in the incubator, which all hatched. The group grew up to be 4.4. Not bad for a beginer. Of course, those early results caused the Baylesses and the like to hate me, as I jumped right past them, before I even got to know them. I was not and am not a monitor person. I am a reptile person. Wait, I like and respect all animals, but, a good number of humans and a few dogs.

Then I applied the same thing to species after species, in all cases it worked well. Guezz who would have thought kingsnake husbandry would work so well on monitors, with some slight adjustments. In fact, I bred them in my old snake cages. hahahahahahahahaha yes, this is very funny to me.

Of course over the years I have fixed and changed and adapted, and modified and such. And of course experienced far better results. So, I still have one of those old ackies, hmmmmmmm I think that exceeds the longevity record for ackies. Awwwwwww who cares. Cheers

I also want your opinion on whether access to up to a 200 degree basking spot is harmful. When I posted this on the previously mentioned forum, it was way too hot; it had burning potential according to them. But, I can register a 200 degree basking spot in the center of my basking area and rest my hand there for however long I wish. It isn't comfortable (for me), but it is not burning hot. I have actually seen my ackies basking on areas over 200 degrees. Of course, this is with wooden basking stacks, rather than the slate basking surface they often recommend...

Thanks again,
Ryan

You mentioned they said. Then I start to wonder.

If you want to work with monitors, then "they" should be monitors. But if your working with other people, then that would mean "they" is some other people.

The answer to the 200F is been done just so very recently, within the last day or so. So I am not going to repeat it.

But I will say, you still have your ackies and you ALREADY used a 200 degree basking areas. So they must not be burnt or dead. Or you would have had your answer from the correct "they" the monitors. As I mentioned recently and ten thousand times in the past, anything above 165F is pretty much a waste of electricity as it does not add to the 165F and limits other options in the cage.

About the other "they" sir, you got to make some decsions, one of them is to stop listening to, to many theys. PICK one anyone and see how that works with the REAL theys(the monitors).

In the case of high basking temps. I am the THEY who invented its use with monitors. So, I would think getting infor from the horses mouth would be in order. When you get information from two different sources like this. You not adding, your polluting the information, and or polluting the stype of husbandry.

For instance, slate(flat stone) compared to plywood. There is a very real difference between the two. Stone is a heat sink. Plywood is an insulator(compared to stone, density and all). So each has a different use and a special benefit.

The first question is, does the monitor species recognize one of both of these materials? The answer is yes, both. The next question is, what is the intended use. For instance, if you have your monitors outdoors in a huge cage, or indoors in a huge cage, say ten feet long. Then you could use something that holds heat. When it holds heat, in limits the choices in a small cage. In 99% oh hech, 100% of the cages I know of, ackies are NOT KEPT IN LARGE CAGES, so wood limits heat radiation and allows more temp differences in a smaller area. so Plywood RETES stacks is a distinct advantage in a small cage. A small cage is six foot long or less. Then theres the safty factor

The next question is, what material carries more dangerous conditions. The answer stone. In my humble experience, I have squashed lots of monitors, with heavy cage props, but never lost a monitor to burns from any litebulb of any kind. I have lost a monitor from burns from heating pads. On a side note, Wild ackies commonly use rock crevices, but unfortunately, they are not fully adapted to them yet, as I have seen between fifty and a hundred dead ackies stuffed in cracks. The reasons could be varied and many, doesn't matter, dead monitors in cracks in nature and in captivity shows a distint pattern of failure.

So in most cases, wood is better then stone, in normal keepers conditions. I do agree, you can paint a prettier picture with stone, but then you have to consider, LOOKS of a cage is ALL about the keeper and nothing to do with the monitor. The monitor is all about use, They pic areas that work, therefore thats the look they like. PERIOD. So, using stone is narsissistic, egotistic or simply put, all about the human. But then, its their problem and they have to live with the results, so how bad is that?

So what I am telling you is, LEARN to learn, your not going to learn listening to people, you get ideas from people, you learn from your monitors. Getting ideas from different people is like getting eggs from different monitors. If you scrabble them together, all you get is scrabbled eggs. hahahahahahahahaha Cheers

I should have specified that the "they" was the uro forum at Repticzone. I went there and tried to give some husbandry ideas used by monitor keepers as well as Robyn on his uros. I was not asking for advice from them.

I went to give them husbandry ideas/theories because I saw several problems in setups, like the huge wattages of bulbs they were trying to use from over a foot away from the basking spot. A lot of the animals there look somewhat dehydrated to me (according to these people, a healthy uro's skin is supposed to be very baggy and isn't supposed to "snap" back into shape if pinched, but I looked at some of Robyn's uro pictures and they look much healthier than these peoples' uros do). I am sure a lot of this had to do with they low range of options in humidity and sometimes temperature that they were providing to their uros. In other words, they were doing the "beef jerky machine" method that is typical of many beginner monitor keepers. They also say that the "rapid" growth that Robyn experienced with his uros was going to be harmful in the long run. So they, being such wonderful reptile keepers, limit food intake (starve) so that the animals take much longer to reach maturity (several years) Appearantly, this is supposed to make the animals live longer, healthier lives...

I have agreed with everything that you have said. I was just getting your input to see if I could back up some of the things that I had said better than I did. I am experiencing decent results with my ackies. In fact, they copulated some a few weeks ago, and my female is looking a bit swollen at this time. Of course, I am still on the un-ending quest for a decent soil, but that is for another discussion.

I tried using Robyn's results of keeping uros like lizards rather than specifically uros, and was immediately shot down. They said than Robyn's animals' fast growth was not healthy and that he would experience problems/shorter lives later on. But, I believe that similar things were said about monitors before you came along, and you have animals that have far surpassed their predicted lifespans. Hmmmmm...

Anyway, thanks.

Ryan

I have talked to Robyn about this too. Heres the deal. They are no different then folks here. The keepers are the same, the lizards are the same. Of course there are some minor adjustments to be made, heck there always are. Thats our job, to keep making minor adjustments.

The deal is, those folks, like these folks, have to want to accept advice. If they do not, well, heck with them. Same with folks here. IT boils down to fear of failure. Fear of failure, causes failure. They do not want to be wrong. So and so, said this and that. I did that, this and that, so I am right. A book said, said this and that, so its right. Etc etc, The problem is, right and wrong are about the subject, the living animal. It reserves the right to be right and wrong and everything in between. The animals can and do have the ability to change their answers. They are right on a temporary basis, then quickly turn and are totally wrong. It really has nothing to do with what your told or what you read, or if your a huge genius. The animals fail, your wrong, PERIOD. This applies to much smaller problems as well.

The point is, what they/you read, what we/they/I say, the best to the worst is only ideas, suggestions, experiences. Its not fact, or even real. The REAL is the animal. So until the "they" realize the reality is the animals in the cages, then there is absolutely nothing to be gained from reading any darn thing.

With this understood, I always ask the "they" what results they are having. If they are experiencing problems, they have absolutely no grounds to think they are right. Or what they read is right, or any base to argue what so ever. Again, if they are having problems, they and what they read, those ideas and suggestions and reports, are either wrong or not applied correctly, or misunderstood. Which all equal wrong as far as the caged subject is concerned.

As I have said a million times, its about context. In the context of living animals, whatever an animals does is right. What ever it does, grows, reproduces perfectly, or dies, is exactly right for a combination of it and its conditions. You cannot argue that, you can only divert or accept blame. Or not worry about it and go on your merry way abusing animals or treating them like they are dumb. Hey copy this and post this over there.

For math boys, the animal is the PRODUCT. Its the product of its care, period. U know I like to poke at academics. The reason is, they use math, yet, they have no successful product. But have a claimed accurate formula. As my old math teacher would say, both sides of a equation HAVE to be the same. Its all in the product. Cheers

The problem is this: I am not sure that I can convince "them" that there are problems being experienced with their animals. As I mentioned, they seem to have a different view on what a dehydrated uro is. Then again, I am not entirely sure as to what a dehydrated uro is...

I will ask you one more question. What do you think that a healthy uromastyx's/reptile's skin should be like? Should it be baggy and loose no matter how much they eat, or should it be filled out with little wrinkling? Based on Robyn's photos of what look to be healthy animals and my experience with other reptiles, I would say the latter. With just about any reptile (whether it be from a desert or rainforest) that I have kept/read about, I have heard that if the skin is pinched, it should snap back into shape rather than form a little pyramid. I don't see as to how a uro would be any different.

Actually, I have another question, this time on brumation. Should any healthy reptile be attempting to go into brumation in captivity? That is, if they are provided with the same constant temperatures/conditions year around? I ask because so many of the uros there frequently attempt to brumate.

Now, I am not sure if this is correct, but I was always under the influence that reptiles only brumate when conditions are not favorable for a healthy life and they are awaiting for better conditons to arrive. Wait, I am almost certain that this is correct. I know it to be true of monitors, and I have also seen skinks running around outside on this oddly warm winter here in Arkansas. I read some ridiculus (I think, at least) opinions there on why their uros attempt to enter brumation. One that really made me laugh out loud was that it was from changes in barometric pressure.

Thanks,
Ryan

Why do you have to convince them. For instance, on here, my responsibility is, to cause awareness. Not to convince. If folks want/have to go on abusing themselves and their charges, they are welcome too.

I do understand, how they flop like a tuna on land. I wonder why they flop so much if they are right. Good luck, but you can only help the willing.

I would like to help the animals. They are what I truly care about, not the people themselves. They should not suffer from somebody's ignorance/stupidity.

I know that they would suffer the same fate as so many other reptiles, but I think that these people (most of them) actually do want their reptiles to have healthy, happy lives. But, my say is not enough for them to listen to me willingly (after all, I don't keep uros, even though they live in similar/same areas and live similar lives as several monitors do). I brought up Robyn's results after a fair period of time, but he is still just experimenting, and he is probably going to experience early deaths or other problems later on. Even though he has had much success with many other reptile species, they were not uros. Appearantly, uros are very much different from any other lizard genus...

Oops, now I am just doing some aimless ranting. Sorry for that waste of time.

Thanks,
Ryan