Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Chameleon experts!

Firstly I would like to say thank you to you all coz I have taken loads of handy tips about my Chameleons away from your postings!

My question is this ........... I have 2 veiled Chameleons, 1 boy and one girl, about a year or so old. I have had them since xmas. When I bought them from the pet store - the girl had an extremly bad cut over her left eye - apparently caused by the male trying to mate with her!
When I got them home - the store had told us it was okay to keep them together - so - we did and they mated on the first day! After that I added a caged partition into my rather large enclosure so they could still see each other but were seperated. (The male became quite violent again after mating)
Three months on and the female has had 35 very healthy eggs and has recovered very well.

My question though - is about the male ....... Since the female has laid - she is still displaying her pregnant colours from time to time (i assume to tell him she is not yet ready for round 2!) and he seems to be getting more and more aggitated. He has changed from his usual very bright colours to quite light colours with dotted brown stripes and is pacing up and down the lenth of the enclosure quite regularly. He is also tending to sit with his mouth quite widely open. He seems generally more grumpy and will hiss if I try to go near him (without food!).

Am I teasing him by having him be able to see his girl and not get to her?! I custom build these types of enclosures so it would not be to much effort to change it so they cannot see each other any more.

Could something else entirely different be wrong with him?

When is the right time to let them back in together again to mate?

Thanx 4 your help dudes!

Do not let them see each other at all. Put something between them both to block the view. They will both be stressed out and stress can cause illness or death after a period of time. Teasing isnt even the word for it, that actually cruel man lol.

Thank you very much for your reply! It seems that you feel strongly they should be seperated! Does anyone else think that this is the case?? I am not seeking a second opinion I am just trying to gather as much information as I can as to make an informed decision!

How long do you think I should wait before letting them mate again?!!

As a rule should males and females ever be kept in the same enclosure?!! Thank you very much for your help!

Ivey gave you good advice about a male and a female veiled not being able to see each other. Its the opinion of everyone who knows anything about keeping veileds. Seeing each other causes them both stress (even if it doesn't look like it is) and it will eventually kill one of them. In the wild, if a chameleon doesn't want to see another it can move away to another area....in a cage it can only go so far. If you have to ask this type of question, then you need to learn/read more about chameleons quickly.

Here are some good sites to start you off. Pay particular attention to the articles aboout calcium/D3/vitamin A too.
http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/
http://adcham.com/
http://www.chameleonnews.com/index.html

You asked..."How long do you think I should wait before letting them mate again?!!"....until the female is ready. To tell if the female is ready...hold her OUTSIDE of the male's cage. If she is normal colors and doesn't hiss or gape or sway back and forth, or darken her background colors, and the male reacts by brightening his colors and NOT hissing, gaping, and approaching her without aggression, then you can place the female into the male's cage. Watch carefully for any signs of rejection in the female or signs of aggression in the male. Intervention will be needed if this happens and the female removed from the cage. After the mating, (several hours or days) the female will take on a very dark background color and if the male comes near her she will hiss, gape, lunge, sway...get her out of there right away.

You asked.."As a rule should males and females ever be kept in the same enclosure?!!"...only for mating and then only until the female starts to reject the male.

If male and female veileds are looked after properly, they can both live to over 7 years of age....if not they will have much shorter lives...so its imperative that you try to get everything "right" for them.

Thank you for your comments! (Even if they were a bit strong!)

I have actually done an awful lot of research and have a good amount of experience with our 2 Chameleons, 2 Water Dragons, 2 snakes, 2 cats and a lobster to our name so far! (along with a girlfriend that studies animal sciences at Uni) so I was merely trying to back up things I had already figured out by coming on this forum!

There are - as im sure you will agree - a great deal of differing opinions on how to look after our beautiful Chameleon friends and some actually say that there is, as yet, no real right or wrong answers to keeping captive bred Veils as there really hasnt been enough study carried out. (All information I got whilst reading up on the species!)

I would like to point out that the female has lived with the male in the pet shop and with the pet shop owners for almost a year before they came to us and the female laid a healthy batch of eggs whilst there. Since being with us she has also laid a healthy batch of 35 eggs! Not bad for a Chameleon that is "stressed - possibly even dying!"

This is why I ask these questions - most studies say they shouldnt be kept together - but up until now mine have been fine - and I have read many reports of others being fine too!

Im sure your right thou mate! Thanks for your reply ---

Anybody else out there with an opinion on the subject!??!!

ooooo .... and i forgot to add ...... in their enclosure (which is pretty large) there are plenty of places they can go to hide from one another if that is there will!

I would say that they have 2 hidey - holes each! They spend about 70% of their time in their hidey - holes and the rest in view of each other .......

If I put a partition up so they cant see each other they will surely still know that each other are there - through memory and smell!??!!

I have been keeping veileds for quite a bit over 10 years...and other chameleons for quite a few years before that....and I have seen and heard what happens to veileds when they are kept together as a pair...and even when two females are kept together. One almost always dies. It may take some time...but it happens. There are some people who (with very large cages) have been able to keep a pair together...but that's the exception to the rule....and do you want to risk yours being the exception??

Here are some other opinions for you...
Cohabitation (the first one is about two different species, its the following ones that I'm referring you to)...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/index.html

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/july2003/cohabitation/cohabitation.html
"There will always be a low grade stress level for the loser who is being dominated. The winner, though, is not free from this stress as the winner must constantly maintain his dominance."
"health issues related to co-habitation usually manifest themselves over time and indirectly. This makes the official cause of death something other than co-habitation. And the problems become noticeable to the keeper long after the chameleons have been together thus, in the keepers mind, ruling out co-habitation as a source of trouble."

http://www.chameleonnews.com/index.html
"Myth #3: Chameleons can be kept in small groups rather than individual cages.
Fact: Very few chameleons will tolerate the presence of conspecifics. A few of the tiny members of the genera Rhampholeon and Brookesia are notable exceptions but even then, two adult males should not be housed together. Virtually of the commonly kept species such as the jacksonii, pardalis, calyptratus, quadricornis, melleri, deremensis, lateralis, gracilis, dilepis, and even the tiny ellioti, require individual housing and this means visual as well as physical isolation from other chameleons. To the eye of the novice two chameleons might appear to be getting along but the stress is there and the result will be an early death. If you can provide a large, walk-in type cage, you might get away with it for some species but this is rarely an option for novices and should only be attempted by those with extensive experience in chameleon husbandry. Only experience lets you identify the subtle symptoms of chronic stress before it’s too late."

You said..."There are - as im sure you will agree - a great deal of differing opinions on how to look after our beautiful Chameleon friends"...I do agree with that...but look at the success records from these people. How long did their chameleons live? How healthy were they during that time? Did they reproduce? How did the hatchlings do (healthwise, lifespan, etc.)?

You also said..."some actually say that there is, as yet, no real right or wrong answers to keeping captive bred Veils as there really hasnt been enough study carried out"...there has been quite a bit of research lately done on them and although there are some grey areas left to do with veileds...again the proof is in the pudding. (Ask the same questions as above.)

You said..."the female has lived with the male in the pet shop and with the pet shop owners for almost a year before they came to us and the female laid a healthy batch of eggs whilst there. Since being with us she has also laid a healthy batch of 35 eggs! Not bad for a Chameleon that is "stressed - possibly even dying!"...as I said the death is not quick...and many (not all) pet shops have no/little idea of what they are doing.

You said..."This is why I ask these questions - most studies say they shouldnt be kept together - but up until now mine have been fine - and I have read many reports of others being fine too!"...you may be lucky and have two that tolerate each other...but the proof may be in how many years they live and what health problems they go through during those years.

You said..."ooooo .... and i forgot to add ...... in their enclosure (which is pretty large) there are plenty of places they can go to hide from one another if that is there will!"...I'd rather have mine "free" to move around the whole cage rather than to have to spend 70% of their time hiding.

You said..."If I put a partition up so they cant see each other they will surely still know that each other are there - through memory and smell!??!!"....well...I would say they have a memory of kinds...but their sense of smell is supposed to be devolved.
There are other possibilites of each "knowing" the other is there.

http://www.altaranchopet.com/handouts/Reptiles/chameleon_care.htm
"HEARING

Like snakes, chameleons have no external ears. Airborne sound vibrations are absorbed by a membrane of skin on the side of the head, directing them to a bony plate inside the skull. The bone (pterygoid plate) then funnels the vibrations down a tight, convoluted pathway to the inner ear. While the ear can sense sound ranging from 100 to 10,000 cycles, it best "hears" between 200-600 cycles, about what a snake "hears." In other words, they hear sounds more like a tuba makes than a flute, not responding to sound frequencies above middle C on the piano.

SMELL
Chameleons have devolved their sense of smell, relying on vision for locating prey and predators rather than smell or hearing. While other reptiles that rely on smell to help them identify objects in their environment, chameleons have only the vestigial remains of this vomeronasal organ, called the Jacobson's organ, which is inoperative."

If you want more opinions, try posting on this kingsnake forum...it gets more action than this one...
http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=44