Reptile & Amphibian Forums

VANCOUVER SUN (British Columbia) 08 July 04 Egg-snatching a touchy job: Potential brood must be taken from an aggressive mother -- an African rock python (Nicholas Read)
As egg-gathering goes, it leaves a lot to be desired.
Some time within the next 90 days -- and the sooner, the better -- Paul Springate, curator of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge in Surrey, has to remove a clutch of 30 or more eggs from a mother African rock python, considered, he says, to be the second most aggressive large snake in the world.
(The most dangerous is also the largest, the reticulated python.)
The 15-foot new mother, named Curvy, laid her eggs on Sunday after mating with the eggs' father, Nigel, who is only 10 feet long.
But unless Springate, who helps run the refuge for animals discarded by the pet trade, wants a lot more little snakes scurrying around, he has to remove the eggs and destroy them.
"If they were allowed to hatch, there would be baby rock pythons everywhere, and this is a nasty, dangerous snake that is known to eat people, especially children," he said Wednesday.
In view of that, he intends to be very careful removing the eggs. His plan is simply to go into the snakes' enclosure and remove them by hand from under the mother snake. Sometimes snakes can be sluggish after giving birth, Springate says. He hopes this is one of those times.
"It can be dangerous," he said. "It could go like clockwork -- or not, if she should choose to defend her eggs."
Curvy once belonged to a snake owner in B.C. who kept her for breeding purposes. Springate can't understand that, given the African rock python's reputation for being such an aggressive snake.
Nevertheless, he says it's a pity the eggs have to be destroyed because under different circumstances, he'd like to help propagate the species in the wild.
But not in Surrey.
"It's difficult to do," he says of his pending assignment, "but somebody else created this problem, and we're trying to solve it."

THE LEADER (Surrey, British Columbia) 11 July 04 Sneaking up on a snake
Coiled up, Curvy the African rock python doesn't appear much of a threat.
Her size - 15 feet long, with a girth about that of a 12-year-old's head - gives the impression she'd move slow. And she certainly doesn't look 125 lbs.
But Curvy is anything but a lady.
A member of the second-nastiest snake family in the world, her species in the wild will take on a crocodile without a second thought.
This week, at South Surrey's Rainforest Reptile Refuge, which has been her home for the past 10 years, Paul Springate is hoping he gets Curvy on a good day.
That's because he's going in to take away and destroy her most precious possession: the eggs she laid last Sunday.
"It's going to be downright, bloody scary," Springate said. "I have to go in, blindfold her, quickly get her off (the eggs), and have somebody go in and quickly scoop the eggs out.
"She's known to be very, very violent. One mistake and that could be my last."
Snakes like Curvy typically lay between 30 and 50 eggs. Left to hatch and grow in captivity, at least two will survive to adulthood.
The eggs have to be destroyed because the refuge, a non-profit society which relies on donations to care for its injured and abandoned charges, simply doesn't have the room or the money to take on the task.
This will be at least the fifth clutch of eggs Curvy's had taken from her since arriving.
Springate hopes the drastic but necessary measure will send a message to the public.
Too many people continue to buy exotic pets, not realizing the commitment reptiles like Curvy require, he said. Many live 20 years or more. Curvy could live until she's 40.
"People should not have these animals. They're not friendly, they're not domesticated, and you cannot tame them," Springate said.
Curvy's clutch would not face this fate if she was in the wild where she belongs, he added.
Sneaking up on a snake

If you want a quick video clip of the original news item, go to http://www.ctv.ca/canada and then slide down the right hand side of the page where the “Web Extras” are listed. Pick up ‘Reptilian Remedy”.
Please note that these sort of links tend to disappear quickly.
Cheers
Wes

THE LEADER (Surrey, British Columbia) 18 July 04 Letters x2: Scaling up reptile education: snakes should have been kept apart
As an active member of the herpetological/herpetocultural community (study and keeping of reptiles), I am compelled to respond to the article "Sneaking up on a snake."
We understand the attraction of reptiles to the general public. For some it is curiosity while others it can be fear and/or fascination. As such, the popular media (such as yourselves) finds the topic irresistible.
Unfortunately, education and understanding of these animals is rarely the intention of such publicity. Instead they are portrayed as evil and dangerous beasts.
As I have spent the past three years educating groups such as Guides and Scouts about reptiles, perhaps some basic facts are in order here as well.
There are over 8,040 species of reptile alive today, of these approximately 560 are venomous. Of the remaining 7,470 or so non-venomous reptiles only about 35 can be argued to be potentially dangerous to humans.
In fact, documented human fatalities can be attributed to fewer than 16 species worldwide. Furthermore, within North America, non-venomous reptiles are responsible for fewer than 12 deaths over the last 10 years.
In all cases, improper care and caging of the animal was directly related to the incident. In stark contrast, in the U.S. alone, domestic dogs are responsible for 4.7 million injuries due to biting - 800,000 of these require medical attention and average 17 fatalities annually. Clearly, reptiles in captivity are not the danger we would be led to believe.
In addition, I would like to admonish the Rainforest Reptile Refuge for their behaviour. It is reported that this animal has laid five clutches of eggs thus far.
This can only happen if the female is introduced to a male of the same species and allowed to breed. This is much the same as if dogs and cats held at the SPCA were allowed to breed and reproduce repeatedly.
I saw your article on the rock python, after it was linked to on some community forums.
Curvy would not be laying any eggs if Mr. Springate actually practiced proper husbandry. In order for Curvy to lay fertilized eggs she would have had to have been kept in an enclosure with a male.
These animals are solitary by nature, and anyone who has kept snakes as pets can tell you that they should be kept apart except for the express purpose of breeding.
Solitary animals, when placed in close proximity to others within an enclosure can undergo stress related disorders, such as refusing to feed, or increases in what would be normal parasite loads, due to a decreased immune response.
Rock pythons are aggressive snakes, there is no doubt about that. But they don't come looking for you, they're more likely to flee, and attack if cornered. There have been reports of children and domesticated animals in their native range being consumed.
While consumption of humans hasn't been confirmed, it's possible that a child stumbling on to a hunting python might become its prey. But an animal in captivity that is fed regularly will not make an overt effort to consume foods that would be unnatural to it in the wild.
I would not recommend these snakes to anyone who is not already well versed in reptile husbandry, and would hope that anyone who owns one has taken proper measures to ensure that it is in an escape proof cage to prevent accidental encounters. So on that point I would agree with Mr. Springate.
But on the matter of allowing the animal to breed, then turning the butchering of her young into a media event to popularize his "refuge" is just despicable.
Mike Wagner, St. Thomas, Ont.
Re: "Sneaking up on a snake"
So to answer the question: How do you stop if from reproducing? Don't put a female rock python in with a male rock python. That would be helpful to start. I guess no one asked why they were breeding it in the first place?
Mr. Springate's comment to Mr. Read was, "Someone else created this problem."
My answer to that is "No, the Reptile Refuge created this problem through their careless stupidity of placing two rock pythons together and letting them breed.
They should be ashamed of themselves for creating this problem - a problem they rail against and yet they have done it themselves. They are negligent, irresponsible pet owners.
My comment to that is the sheer hypocrisy of that supposed Reptile Refuge that takes in these unwanted reptiles but allows no adoption program because no one can possibly look after these animals but them. They are garnering financial support through ignorance.
I also question why the sensationalistic slant everything from them has to take.
They know absolutely nothing about these animals and yet they listen to the worst, most negligent and irresponsible group of people - the anthropomorphic Rainforest Reptile Refuge.
I ask you, did the Reptile Rainforest bother to ask anyone in the Lower Mainland reptile community for help with this big python?
No. And why? Because they don't want help, they just want media headlines of the most negative kind.
Why not do a real report and go into that refuge and report on the overcrowded conditions there and ask them when they plan on doing something about it.
Like put in an adoption program so the animals go to good, caring homes.
Teresa Piorun
Fraser Valley
Herpetocultural Society
Letters x2 ... snakes should have been kept apart

THE LEADER (Surrey, British Columbia) 18 July 04 Editorial: Eliminate need for the refuge
Who thought a snake and her eggs could generate such public reaction. However, Curvy the rock python and her doomed offspring did exactly that last week, when their caretaker - Paul Springate of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge - told the media he would have to destroy her 42 eggs, calling it a prime example of why people should not own exotic pets.
The response - primarily from the community of reptile fans and owners - was quick and vociferous.
Letter-writers accused Springate of being irresponsible, the media of being sensational, and the refuge of perpetrating inhumane treatment of the creatures in its care - which number more than 400 involving 66 species.
People argued that a male snake should not have been allowed to live in the same enclosure as Curvy, and hence her eggs would not have been fertilized (she would have laid a clutch anyway).
Springate was chastised for his descriptions of the dangers the snake posed.
And particularly damning were comments that the refuge keeps its animals in unhealthy and overcrowded conditions, while adhering to a no-adoption policy.
Clearly, the publicity Springate wished to bring to the plight of the refuge and its creatures backfired to some degree, although he said he has also received calls of support.
Apparently, there wasn't much thought given to the issue of the snakes co-habitating, nor was it particularly useful for Springate to dramatize the snake's "nasty" nature in the way he did, which raised the ire of reptile lovers.
We accept the criticism that the media did not ask some key questions, nor did it offer other research.
However, that said, the wave of negative reaction that resulted is unfortunate, and not just a little hypocritical.
The Rainforest Reptile Refuge is the only one of its type in the Lower Mainland. Springate took it over from other operators last fall. He has so many creatures in his care that he is trying not to accept any more, although people keep dumping their unwanted pets on his doorstep.
Obviously, there is a huge need for such a shelter, and it confirms beyond any doubt Springate's key point - that far too many people who take on exotic pets don't know how to care for them, or lose interest, to the animal's despair.
Curiously, not one of the critics who e-mailed or called to criticize offered assistance, although several suggested the refuge should rescind its no-adoption policy.
Springate says he is unwilling to put his charges up for adoption, because it potentially puts them at risk of poor care or abandonment yet again.
None of the critics suggested any other alternatives.
We accept and appreciate there is a community of reptile aficionados and owners out there who truly know about and care for their special pets.
However, we also have no doubt that exotic pets represent a level of commitment and knowledge that a significant percentage of first-time owners simply don't possess or pursue, and as a result, the creatures suffer.
That's why recently we strongly recommended in this space that this city - all cities, in fact - adopt bylaws banning the sale, trade and ownership of exotic creatures.
We too would like to see the demise of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge - not because of how it operates, but because it is no longer needed.
Eliminate need for the refuge

SURREY LEADER (British Columbia) 21 July 04 Adoption perpetuates critical problem
Recent events have put the Rainforest Reptile Refuge under the media spotlight. We have received a lot of responses, mostly positive. Some detractors have made valid points about the society, while others have misconceptions.
Indeed, the refuge is overcrowded. This is not something we let happen willingly, but is due to poorly informed owners improperly caring for their animals, or worse yet, abandoning them on our doorstep. The lack of bylaws prohibiting their breeding, sale and ownership in the Greater Vancouver region aggravates the problem even further.
The Refuge (www.rainforestsearch.com) is unique in all of Canada, being a volunteer-based, non-profit shelter whose mandate is to care for unwanted reptiles and amphibians. We also promote education and awareness, giving tours to thousands of students and other groups every year.
Curvy, the African rock python, should not have to live a captive life. She's an unfortunate by-product of the exotic pet trade, a tale too often told for those familiar with the 400 animals at the refuge. Returning her to Africa is not an option, as international law forbids it. Regrettably, we don't have the space or funds to build her another enclosure.
Normally we have little choice but to destroy eggs which may be fertile. Fortunately, a UBC professor has expressed interest in the eggs for research purposes.
Adopting out these animals is not an option, as it only serves to perpetuate an already critical problem. These unwanted critters came to the refuge to live out their days in peace.
We strive to provide them with food, shelter and warmth with the resources available. A new facility would be wonderful, but we need enough support for that dream to become a reality, and we always welcome volunteers.
Lee Beavington, Vice-president, RRRS
Adoption perpetuates critical problem