Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright, everyone who's been following the awful incidents with Stryder's herps, here's the information I've found so far on Organophosphates, thanks to the tip from DZBReptiles.

Site:
http://animal.discovery.com/guides/reptiles/diseases/mitesticks_02.html

Relevent text:
Pest strips or dog/cat flea collars: Pieces of pest strips or flea/tick collars of dogs and cats have been used by some as a treatment for external parasites by placing them inside of or on top of the reptile's cage. These often contain organophosphates which are very toxic to reptiles, and their use is NOT recommended.

Interestingly enough, I found almost the exact same information (word for word) on this website:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=17&cat=1831&articleid=2433

Site:
http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/37/4/369.pdf
WARNING: Heavy duty science terminology used here. Most of the research was regarding birds and mammals; however, after reading the first couple pages, I'd have to say that organophosphates are pretty nasty.
Relevent Text:
Organophosphates
(OPs) were developed during WWII as nerve gases and their insecticidal properties were discovered shortly thereafter (O'Brien, 1967).
OPs and CBs are particularly relevant to this symposium series because the target neurotransmitter is " . . . the only substance that can influence every physiological or behavioral response thus far examined."
(Meyers in Russell, 1982:439).

Site:
http://healthvsmedicine.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_healthvsmedicine_archive.html

Relevent Text:
In the U.S. we moved away from use of another class of insecticides, the organochlorines (such as DDT and Methoxychlor) because they bio-accumulate in fish, mammals and fowl. Organophosphates, in contrast, are broken down by enzyme systems in the vertebrate liver. That may be good news for bald eagles, but it's no consolation to every insect, slug, snail, or earthworm exposed to organophosphates. They are completely non-selective and will kill your ladybird beetles and butterflies right along with your mosquitoes. They are also quite toxic to reptiles and amphibians, and oh yeah -- to human children, whose liver enzyme systems have not fully developed.

Site:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=2250
Note: This information is from the cat section

Relevent text:
Toxin
Organophosphates and Carbamates.

Source
Many insecticides including malathion, parathion, diazinon, carbaryl, bendiocarb, propoxur, chlorpyrifos (Dursban), methylcarbamate, chlorfenvinphos, cythioate, dichlorvos, dioxathion, fenthion, ronnel, phosmet, and disulfoton.

Site:http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1588&articleid=598
Note: Same site as above, just the dog section. Organophosphates are really, really yucky.

Relevent text:
Safety: Organophosphates and organocarbamates are the class of insecticides most likely to cause toxic reactions in pets. If toxic levels are applied to the pet, (or the pet ingests them), the pet will experience nerve abnormalities. A pet suffering with organophosphate poisoning will salivate, tremor, stagger, and may seizure. An antidote is available to counteract its effect. At our hospital, we have seen two cases of organophosphate poisoning in pets. Both were accidental ingestion of large quantities of the chemical, and fortunately neither patient died. NOTE: Greyhounds and Whippets can be overly sensitive to organophosphates, so use a different product in these breeds.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

You get the idea. I couldn't find too much on the effects of flea products on reptiles, but organophosphates in other pesticides has a lot of government studies on it because of the effect on the environment.

Pretty much, nothing conclusive on reptiles in particular, but I found enough information to make me go "hmm".

It's a definate possibility in Stryder's case, but from my understanding of what I've read in the articles, the snakes that came down with the mystery symptoms would have had to breathe/eat/touch the organophosphates. If the breathable concentration was enough to sicken the snakes, all of the snakes in his herp room should have gotten sick as well, unless some was directly smeared somewhere in the cage. If it was something they ate, obviously, check where you get your rodents from (if you don't breed your own) and see if they're treating for fleas. Touch...Anyone's guess. Garden pesticides, flea products... any possible way the snakes in question could have come into contact with these things?
Not accusing you, Stryder, merely putting the options out there. Could be organophosphates weren't the culprit after all.

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 neurotic mouse (Cute Girl Mousey)
1.0 escape artist mouse (Jesusmouse)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

The Saddest Mouse

>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Thank you very much for posting this information.

I, too, have been doing a lot of reading on the subject. I spoke about it with the doc at the lab who is doing the necropsies on the dead snakes.

Uopn gross examination, he said all snakes apeared in good condition. (Ummm.......other than being dead, I guess.) He saw no signs if IBD, although that won't be entirely ruled out until Fiday. The only thing he saw initially were some spots on the livers. He said this could be consistant with contact of some kind with organophosphates.

I'll know more later this week, hopefully.

The snakes who died were near where my vacuum cleaner would have sat. (It's a canister-type vac.) I would assume there is some possibility that if it had spewed its contents into the air, it could have gotten onto their cages, where I would have gotten it on my hands or something before reaching into them. I dunno. I am still racking my brain.

Aside from the two dead corn snakes, all others seem OK so far.....

I learned my lessons the hard way. And with out a doubt I may be overly cautious now, but I am surprised that with all the info available today that incidents of this nature are still occuring. While doing a little reseach after jenny's post about more info, I came across numerous threads in different forums about this very subject. The one that shocked me the most was I believe from a European forum that was recomending that you apply "Fontline" directly to your snake. The young snake after having been treated died and beside the usual "sorry for your loss" comments were several comments like "its only leathal to very small snakes" or "its only really safe for larger animals" or "it has to be applied by body weight" and "did you dilute it or use it full strenght?". What the F### goes though peoples minds. I personaly could not and would not recommend any type of treatment to someone if there is even the slightest chance that it could harm their animals. And Stryder as for your vaccum, consider this. The human sneeze can travel up to 40 ft. How far do you think the air from a 7200 rpm motor can carry small particles and vapors???

Jeff

The most important lesson my snake has ever taught me:
Most people are dumb.
Or ignorant. Or just don't care.
And that's why I'm such a pain about researching and learning about stuff

I can't even begin to tell you some of the things I've encountered at work. I have to count to ten when people ask me "OhMiGod Aren't you scared? Isn't that poisonous?" when I take out the ball pythons to feed/clean the cage. Someone ALWAYS says that. ALWAYS. YEAH, I'd stick my hand in a cage of venemous reptiles, and sure, a national chain of petstores would carry venemous snakes to sell to the general public. Of course that's logical! (it's a pet peeve, can you tell?)
"I heard I could use windex to keep my ball boa from getting mites."
"What do you mean I shouldn't smoke in the same room I keep my snake in?" (A customer couldn't understand why his snake had recurring respiratory infections)
"I keep a cornsnake and ball python together and they do just fine!"
"Honey I want the grey snake, it'll match the couch!" (this woman was pointing to a redtail boa as she said this. when I told her how big they get, she said "Oh, we'll just get rid of it then."
"I bred iguanas and they did great in cages about as long as this here (8feet) and about this wide (3 feet) only about yay tall (1 foot)."
"My turtles keep getting sick and won't eat! What? They need heat? A bigger tank? All three of them fit in the ten gallon just fine!"
"My son said he hasn't fed his gecko in about four months, so I figured I should come pick something up. Don't they eat salad or something?"

And I will never forget this phone call for the rest of my life:
"My turtle's head is falling off, what should I do?"

Yup, I know exactly what you're talking about when you ask "What the F*** is going through people's heads?!!".

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 neurotic mouse (Cute Girl Mousey)
1.0 escape artist mouse (Jesusmouse)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

The Saddest Mouse

(sigh.......)

I really don't think I'd have the patience to work with the general public like that. People!!

Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. There are some cool customers - I spent an hour with a family helping them decide on a reptile to get, and they ended up getting a beardie. Every time they see me at the store they thank me for telling them about him and tell me how awesome he is. Makes yah feel warm n fuzzy inside

And part of my job description is to play with the animals We have a young caique in the bird room and he says "I love you" to his favorite people, and wolf whistles at pretty girls.

There's worse jobs to put yourself through college!

~jenny
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1.2 normal ball pythons (Cindy, Darwin, and Periscope)
0.2 rescue chinese water dragons (Yoni and Linga)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
1.0 gerbil (Yerbul)
0.1 neurotic mouse (Cute Girl Mousey)
1.0 escape artist mouse (Jesusmouse)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
1.1 betta fishes (Vicious and Killer)
2.2 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
3.0 horses (Buddy, Sam, and Scout)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
1.25 chickens (Ugly the rooster and his harem)

The Saddest Mouse

Yes. There could be far worse!

Is there any correlation between who ate what/when/from where and the snakes that where effected?

I meant to mention before, don't know if I did. My ball pythons that died had not eaten in some time. I am not putting rats on my list of suspects.