Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey i see all these adds in the classifieds about ghost and het ghots and all these desinger morphs and double hets with different kinds of ghost my question is how many different ghost phases are there i know ive seen orange and desert ghost are there more? I am asuming there is different lines rather than just getting random ghost colors while breeding has anyone crossed one phase of ghost with another? I am thinking about investing in some because there potential in different projects but i really dont know much about them at all.

I think it would really help to eliminate much of the confusion in the marketplace if we stopped using the name "ghost" for the hypo or hypomelanistic gene in ball pythons all together.

In other animals the "ghost" is a combo of the dominant expressions of both hypo and anerythristic (corns, kings, milks, boas). But the ghost ball python is just a hypo. It's an old name and has stuck around long enough to be a problem now that we have your example of the desert ghost and others which have nothing to do with the hypo gene at all.

All of the traditional hypo ball pythons have to my knowledge in my breedings and people I know, proven to be the same gene. You figure if "normal" or wild type balls vary so much in color it shouldn't be surprising that hypos would vary as much in orange, yellow, green, etc. When my baby hypos hatch they are very bright orange and yellow. Then as they grow most turn into a yellow or green and yellow color. I have animals from three different breeders and direct from Africa and they have all proved to be the same gene.

Cool do you have a web site or some pics of your hypos? I am interested in buying some hets (possibly in the near future).

I would like to disagree with you on this...ghosts are much more than just a hypo....in fact I think that the term hypo is a little misleading as I have seen ghosts with melanin...the telling characteristic of the ghost morph is that the scales are absent of pigment...nothing more,for the most part,as long as they shed clear they are ghosts,regardless of what they are colored...so I think that the term ghost for this morph is right-on and the term hypo is much better being secondary.

also,not all ghosts lines are compatible,but most are....

on another note,its my observation,that within the differant compatible lines and/or color phases it is best to keep the line pure...by this I mean,for example,if breed the butterscotch or orange or green etc...line of ghosts to each other you have a better chance of getting some amazing offspring versus mixing them with another line of ghosts...not that any ghost isnt amazing but the results could be more to your liking in the line you choose to work with...abx

I agree with you ABX.. I have heard on more then one occasion that people have produced double hets from breeding ghost to ghost which would in theory make the lines very different. I am very interested in seeing if the Silver ghost is compatable with orange this season !!! But i have to agree with breeding orange to orange and so forth, i beleive in my opinion that Ghosts breed to other ghosts from the same "line" produce better more vibrant offspring. Then again that may just be me
Kim

"in fact I think that the term hypo is a little misleading as I have seen ghosts with melanin"

I think you might be confusing hypos with albinos here? Hypo doesn't mean that the animal lacks melanin (that would be amelanism, aka albinism), it just means there is a slight reduction in the amount of melanin expressed.

The only thing I find personally confusing about hypos is the difference between it and the caramel albinos (aka t albinos). Those snakes also produce some melanin but not the normal amount. So the idea behind the two is the same, yet the results are quite different! I'm guessing the hypo mutation doesn't have much to do with the genes that control tyrosinase - the enzyme that enables the production of melanin - but rather the genes that control for the placement and output of melanin. Then again, not having studied ball python molecular genetics in depth, I could be completely off base.

I think the term hypo is more accurate than ghost, and will be even more so when real ghosts are finally produced.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Im not talking about amelanistics...the term "hypo" is short for "hypo-melanistic"...and yes "hypo" is a part of the ghost line but it is not ,the main characteristic that defines a ghost...

was a separate pigment from melanin?
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"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

The "orange", "yellow" and "butterscotch" Hypos are all the same animal. I know this not from my opinion but from the fact that I produce hypos from several "lines" each year for several years. You guys get way too hung up on catch words and phrases that people have used for marketing that you put more value into then they deserve.

For many years piles of baby hypos have come from Africa to the USA. They are from different countries and different areas of those 3 countries. Big breeders like Bell, BHB and others got those animals in from Africa, raised them up and bred them into other imported hypos and other ball projects. There are no real "lines" of hypo. It is just like giving credit to everyone that produces a pastel from an african pastel as having a "new line". It is untrue and just hype. You have no way of knowing without DNA testing if what you are calling a line isn't related to everything else in the market place and as long as the genes are compatible that is your proof that "orange", "yellow" and other hypos are the same exact thing. Every pied ever imported came from a very small area and they are all likely related. Who knows until somebody puts up the money to do the research?

If you take a very high black ball and make it a hypo it will be orange. IF you take a very brown ball and make it hypo it will be yellow. That is how it works. And as somebody else already pointed out, hypomelanism means a reduction of black pigmentation. My hypos by the way, have no black pigment whatsoever as I cherry picked the nicest animals out of dozens that I purchased many years ago. I breed a Bell hypo X a BHB hypo and I get bright orange babies and bright yellow babies. They grow up to spectacular colored animals. I am very proud to say, some of the best I have seen. I will post some pics as soon as I figure out how.

I do have a site but it is down right this minute while I try to figure out a problem with it. www.evanstahlreptiles.com.

Let's see if this works. If it does should be baby hypos hatching and pastel hypo

Bam that just hit the nail square on the head. You stated that perfectly nice ghost/hypo what ever ya want to call them they are very nice.

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Vince Pramuk

in your statement

"I would like to disagree with you on this...ghosts are much more than just a hypo....in fact I think that the term hypo is a little misleading as I have seen ghosts with melanin...the telling characteristic of the ghost morph is that the scales are absent of pigment...nothing more,for the most part,as long as they shed clear they are ghosts,regardless of what they are colored...so I think that the term ghost for this morph is right-on and the term hypo is much better being secondary. "

Hypo=reduced or lower amount... example low blood suger=hypoglycemia, low body temp= hypothermic. by your definition hypoglycemia would mean no blood sugar which would more than likely kill someone which it doesn't normally.

by your definition you are saying hypo balls or ghosts have scales that are absent of pigment which would make the scales white. hypos have a reduction in the amount of melanine that is displayed or produced (we don't know because nobody has done the scientific research). They still produce melanine just lower amounts which is where the name hypomelanistic comes from and a elimination of black pigment is amelanistic ie albino.

now on the other part you pretty much hit it, most lines are compatible but not all. I know the G1 hypos from grazianni aren't compatible according to either his website or from talking to him, can't remember exactly. Also citrus hypos haven't been crossed with other lines yet but hopefully they will be compatible but only for marketing as keeping this line pure as well as others is preferable and yes I know that early lines were crossed with little abandon but there are uncrossed lines out there now that routinely throw consitant looking babies.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

"by your definition you are saying hypo balls or ghosts have scales that are absent of pigment which would make the scales white"

no josh not white ,but clear...and that is what gives them the ghostly appearance for what they were named after..

I was just weighing the "pros and cons" of calling them ghosts vs. hypos...thay are obviusely hypos and that is not a bad name for the morph and it is appropiate...it was just my opinion that the name "ghost" was a little more descriptive...only because there is more going on with the morph than being hypo alone...abx

ABX, I am not trying to beat up on you, but that is where the whole problem lies with this thread. When you say they are not simple hypo but something else as well, you are wrong. They are just hypo and the hypo gene is a single mutation and a simple recessive gene mutation. When you breed hypo to normal or hypo to het hypo, the animals that are not hypo are normal appearing. That tells you there is no other thing going on or you would get another mutation from those hypo x het breedings.

I know almost nothing about the "G1" hypo but isn't it supposed to dominant? And doesn't it have a very different appearance than the standard hypos we have been talking about?

The "citrus" are a whole 'nother ball of wax as well. They do appear to have a marker darker pigment in them than traditional hypos. Maybe they just need to be bred more or maybe they are just something else entirely. Who knows? But they are both new things to the market compared to the traditional hypo gene we are talking about. Maybe somebody could grab Chris or Greg and get them to post more info on their animals?

evensnakes....im not trying to beat you up either ,i just wanted to say where I am coming from...

the way I see it is this...pastels are hypo,brownbacks are hypo,pins are hypo,mojaves are hypo,lessers are hypo,butters are hypo,etc...alot of morphs are a type of hypo...within this thought is why it seems to me, that ghosts should have a better discription than just hypo alone

ghosts are without a doubt hypo-melanistic animal,but I think that the term ghost is a better description of the morph...abx