Reptile & Amphibian Forums

seen this before.I wasn't sure how many of you had seen this before.Its from a jan (94) captive breeding Magazine.
I later heard that these guys died and I think the adults did also.

To bad would have been cool to have real untanted amel thayeri in the hobby.

Shannon

its too bad i might actually want one of those thayeri, i personally dont care much for the ones we have around now. i see a few i like from time to time but those are knockouts.
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.0 snow corns
1.0 albino corns
1.1 sinacorns
2.0 striped ghost corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.3 ghost corns
0.1 bone white crosses
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 blizzard leo gecko
0.2 normal leo geckos
1.0 3 lined mud turtle

This is not my photo...from S. Africa I think....??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Beautiful snake..

Just as the amel gene was introduced into brooksi through cal kings, the amel gene was introduced into thayeri via ruthveni. They're known as "Pastel Kings" and are becoming more common in the hobby.

No wild amel thayeri has ever been found. The case Shannon posted is supposed to be the one documented case of a "pure" amel thayeri. But, I'm very skeptical by nature, and would have to know that an amel wild snake was found, before I would believe that the gene was not introduced from something else.

Greg

Personally I would not need there to have been a wild one found. I go more off of complete history. For instance the Black Gap anery and hypo Graybands. They were not found in the wild but the hets were and the guy who produced them kept really good records and was able to trace them back to exactly which wild caughts were hets. He also was well known for collecting that particular locality almost to the point of obsession.

Yes, I am familiar with the introduction of the amel gene via ruthveni. I suspect the one I posted was just that as well...just adding some pics for fun, ya know.
On the one Shannon posted, I too would have been very skeptical especially when it was from unrelated adults?
Of all I have seen however, that one looked the purest I think.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Why would you folks believe that? Its said, believed to be. As in, not from known wild caughts.

The reason I say this is, the normal one appears to be a cross to me. And I have lots of experience with that. Of course we all know that these animals are variable. But that animal still appears to be a cross, to clean.

I am also experienced in wild thayri. As one of the pioneer breeders. But again, appearances.

Also, timing. 1993, could be a conicidence, or it could be luck. Normally when producing from outbreeding, you get lots of hets. These hets at first carry some value to breeders, but the reality is, you produce far more hets then can carry that value. So lots of hets hit the market as normal(homo). Usually as a wholesale product.

I used to marvel at how little came of this. I attributed it to mans anthropromorphic fear of inbreeding. hahahahahahahahahahaha

Again I question the value of a pure albino vs. a non pure albino. You know, comparing the unnatural to the unnatural, seems meaningless to me. Or an accidental deformity, to a planned deformity. Folks, albinos are one of natures failures. The next thing I will read is, you prefer pure two-headed snakes over cross two-headed snakes. I know, I know, I am weird.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate albinos as much as the next person, and I apprecitate morphs. As I appreciate wild natural occurring colors and patterns(pure), But to argue one degree of morphism over another, is, well, just plain odd and losing all prespective. Cheers

I am skeptical too as there is no backround info on the parents origin. I think though this was very soon after the amel ruthveni popped out and maybe even before the amel nelsoni. I remember thinking at the time it would have been hard for the guy to get any crosses that looked that much like thayeri so soon. That said the normal does kinda look like a cross but it also looks like a really clean thayeri and thayeri were cleaned up and several gens from the wild at that point. The neonates, as those are, could be especially clean looking and not muddy up until a year or two old.

I think if anything it would cross from normals way back and the amel gene actually did come from thayeri but the crossing(if any) was done previously and not known by the breeder.

Well put. I also thought the "normal" in the pic was off a bit to be 100% thayeri.
I know a few breeders who used that blue gravel back then too for photos. Some, coincindentally, also worked with hybrids..
I just got that feeling, ya know? Probably off-base but nonetheless.....

By the way Frank, I would love to see some wild pyromelana photos... Have any to share????
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

One question Frank. How similar do you think Thayeri are to Ruthveni? The reason I ask is some people hate to see crosses of two King subspecies that live quite close to each other, like Florida X Easterns. Most people know I like pure, crosses, hybrids....and well all snakes. I know some people were horrified over Ruthveni X Thayeri crosses....I think they are knockouts but would be interested to see pure Thayeri Albinos too. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

The range of so called montane kings forms a V. The upper left part of the V, is in ariz. The upper right is big bend. The bottom of the V is Mexico City. Basically, thats their range.

Now, the upper left is Pyro/zonata, the upper right is Alterna/blairs, the bottom of the V is Ruthveni.

To the upper left of Ruth, is webbi, greeri, Knoblocki, then the pyros and zonatas. To the upper right, is Ruth, then ???, then mex mex, then thayri, then ?????, then alterna and blairs.

The question marks are either different subspecies/species/intergrades, whatever someone wants to call them.

So, Thayri does not mean up with ruthvens. They are seperated by mex mex, and others.

In my opinion, Ruthvens is the Queen, the mother stock of all the montane kings. Cheers

But I don't think that nature fails at anything. If anything nature succeeded in providing something of interest to the scientific community, snake hobbyist, and breeders. Also how many snakes in captivity are albinos? The snakes are alive, isn't that a success? I would'nt call them failures, they really got the odds against them in the wild but they are not failures, mutations yes not failures. How many snakes are kept just because of their genetic differences?

a natural occurring population of albino kingsnakes? Or even an area they are part of the population. And don't give me Japanese rats, they are maintained by humans.

I imagine, you can make any word fit your own unique definition. Cheers

I agree, my definition of your failure is a success. Just an oppinion I'm talking all morphs not just albinos. I like my pures as much a the next guy but I also like my albino, axanthic, white side, hypo, and any combo just as much.

Look,
I am a very skeptic person also and I only work with what I believe are pure sub-species.
Anyway,The thing is that they were produced in 93 and that was also the first year that Osbourne had amel ruthveni availible to the public also.
Moody had amel nelsoni available also in 92.The first two were produced in (90) but the first one ready to breed was (93).
Hondos didn't come along till 96 in the states.

I think they were the real deal and I had produced some that looked just almost exactly the same as that normal back in the early 90s.

We may never really no for sure but and it doesn't really matter I guess since they have parished.

Shannon

The normal looking Het does not look like pure Thayeri to me either. Either a mix, a unique unusual looking Thayeri, or the flash is making the white look really white and clean. Also the red in the saddles just looks too deep red with different looking bleed into the black borders. Just doesn't look right. Like someone mentioned on the Mexicana forum, like a pale milk or some kind of cross. Guess we'll never know, but that make me very suspicious........mike bodner

Chris' Colubrids - Thayeri