Reptile & Amphibian Forums

we're still battling the fungus on the hatchlings.. so with the soaking 2 times a day and treating them I of course dug out my camera and shot some pics..
though slightly blurry they're still good I think, the main subject is #2, who's since hatching been the most photogenic turtle I have ever seen, even more so than my largest female(she's the one who produced the hatchlings) who tends to "smile" at the camera.

#2




#3

I do have a question, do you think 20 weeks(or there abouts) is to young for the first growth ring?
all 3 of them appear to be getting their firsts, they have grown some but they're not over eating, only #3 has tried plant matter thus far so they're basically on animal matter only, what do you all think?

They are so cute!
I love the way babies have such big heads! lol
-----
PHRatz

a short (21s) feeding video, #3 with a meal worm, he's the only one that readily takes meal worms, that orange blob in the fore ground is a peice of mango which they did not pay any attention to.

incase you couldn't get the other one to work.
Feeding Video

I can hear the voice-over...

"And now our subject approaches its prey cautiously before...striking at the neck of the giant anaconda, struggling to keep its footing while the anaconda attempts to writhe its way out of the jaws of this fierce predator...ladies and gentlemen, just look at the tenacity of the turtle as it bears down and applies the fatal pressure on the neck of its prey!"

The little ones crack me up when they wrestle with the worms!

>>I can hear the voice-over...
>>
>>"And now our subject approaches its prey cautiously before...striking at the neck of the giant anaconda, struggling to keep its footing while the anaconda attempts to writhe its way out of the jaws of this fierce predator...ladies and gentlemen, just look at the tenacity of the turtle as it bears down and applies the fatal pressure on the neck of its prey!"

ROFL!!! That's great I can just hear it now.
HEY cool I actually managed to make the video play for me, it was great!!!
whoooooo hoooooooooo
-----
PHRatz

Why is it that box turtles have growth rings, but they are not visible on the other turtle I have (eastern painted and red-eared slider)

I have not had box turtles long enough to see if old layers falla off, but when I got my eastern painted late last summer, he was shedding his outer shell layer. My red-eared slider has old layers, too, but they do not fall off nearly as well.

Bill

Hatchling box turtles, if not hibernated, should show shell growth/ringing well before 20 weeks (~ 5 months). If they didn't, that would be half an active year with no growth. Don't take offence, those hatchlings look small for that age.

Nice pics! I love the little videos! I wish I could post some up here...I'll have to set up a photo bucket page like that.

I know you've been thrown some questions and comments, but I'll throw a couple more in there. For the question...How often do you feed these hatchlings? For the comment...I've really found mealworms to be just about useless. They're so hard for the little guys to digest, and they don't put up a great showing on the nutritional charts. When I used to offer mealworms more often, I saw far less growth in my hatchlings.

I still offer them occasionally because they're so easy to breed. However, I have had much better results with very small superworms. There are only a couple of suppliers that sell them, but they're worth it! They do have a fairly high fat content, but I have great results offering them about equally as often as earthworms. I breed superworms now, so I have a nearly constant supply of all different sizes. Care is almost exactly the same as mealworms, aside from getting the superworms to pupate. I have some adult bettles that live and reproduce for almost a year!

"I know you've been thrown some questions and comments, but I'll throw a couple more in there. For the question...How often do you feed these hatchlings? For the comment...I've really found mealworms to be just about useless. They're so hard for the little guys to digest, and they don't put up a great showing on the nutritional charts. When I used to offer mealworms more often, I saw far less growth in my hatchlings"

I offer food daily, when the hatchlings were in their 60gal terrarium I had the sow bugs and millipedes in with them so they had food 24/7, though I'd sometimes have to find it for them, as a result my sow bug population is low and they already finished off all the little worms and millepedes I found during fall that is why I started feeding meal worms, they've only been eating meal worms(with whats left of the sow bugs) for about 4 weeks now, I'm going to try getting some wax worms and see how they take to them.

It's good that you're offering food every day. At this point, I think you have two problems. Obviously, you have the fungus. Additionally, I think the turtles are suffering from caloric intake problems. You should have seen growth rings beginning at just a few weeks of age, and now they should be robust and more hardy. I've had this problem before when I was just starting out with hatchlings.

Here's how I kind of see it - When the yolk sac is used up, brand new hatchling turtle needs high calorie food items that are easy to catch and digest. That way, they won't have to spend much energy but they get a big reward (calorie-wise). This will help them add muscle and fat, which will in turn give them strength and energy to catch and digest more difficult prey. I offer "high reward/low expense" food items to the youngest hatchlings until they get more robust and chubby. Then, I add in items that they have to chase, tear, and that are more difficult to digest.

I can't find information on nutritional content of sowbugs, but I suspect that they have a low meat to shell ratio. They can also be hard for the turtles to catch and swallow. Most millipedes release toxic chemicals and are not edible for box turtles. If you squish one in your hands, you may smell a very strong, almond-like odor. To a box turtle, this is like a mouthful of wasabi. They usually spit the creature right out. Some have chemicals that irritate or are toxic.

It sounds like you have some difficulty getting your hands on food items. Mail order feeder suppliers are wonderful. If you have access to a credit card, you can get just about anything shipped right to your door. Most companies have even eliminated "minimum order" requirements.

Here are some higher calorie food items that require little energy to catch and/or digest. You're on the right track with waxworms. Also; earthworms chopped into pieces until they just barely move, soaked Reptomin, soaked dog or cat food, mouthbite sized chopped fish and shrimp, TEENY TINY strips of beefheart or beef liver, and finely chopped pink mice. Besides earthworms, most of these items should only play a small role in the normal diet of a box turtle, but right now I think that they need a "calorie burst". Also, most of these items are available at any grocery store. You can buy nightcrawlers at any Walmart (24 for $2.88). You may need to ask about the beefheart.

Your turtles may need to be soaked in Pedialyte for some glucose and electrolytes. This could give them an energy boost for catching prey. It really is a vicious cycle...they need energy in order to eat and digest, but they need to eat and digest in order to have energy.

Handling them for treatment of the fungus is stressful, and they expend energy trying to escape. You really have no choice, but I'd keep handling to a minimum.

I'm sorry for the long email...I hope it helps.

P.s. In my experience, the beefheart is eaten with such voracity...it's scary! If a cow ever stumbled into my turtle pens...I just can't imagine the carnage!

Good luck! Keep us updated. I'm sure that if you posted an update further up the forum, you'd get some more replies.

not email...post. Ooops.

'I do have a question, do you think 20 weeks(or there abouts) is to young for the first growth ring? ?all 3 of them appear to be getting their firsts, they have grown some but they're not over eating, only #3 has tried plant matter thus far so they're basically on animal matter only, what do you all think?"

Your pics are wonderful!

I love the expressions of your young boxies.

You have also done a great job controlling the unfortunate fungus problem.

I am concerned regarding the apparent stymied growth apparently due to your boxie's fighting their fungus infection. At 20 weeks they should be much larger. I would increase their daily food intake to compensate for their illness. I also would increase their overall temps 5 degrees higher to induce a mild fever speeding up their metabolism, giving them an advantage over the fungus. What we want to do is create a metabolic rate than is faster than the fungus growth. Thereby promoting body growth which can overtake the fungus growth until your boxies are cured. Their appetites should increase also along with vigor and vitality. They will be much more carnivorous at this age; however push the tiny amount of veggies also.

Ric K.

"I am concerned regarding the apparent stymied growth apparently due to your boxie's fighting their fungus infection. At 20 weeks they should be much larger. I would increase their daily food intake to compensate for their illness. I also would increase their overall temps 5 degrees higher to induce a mild fever speeding up their metabolism, giving them an advantage over the fungus."

I'm reluctant to increase the temp any more as I dont want them to dehydrate, they have water 24/7 but they usually do not go in it on their own, the temp right under their light is 95 degrees, the cooler part of their little hospital enclosure is 90 degrees.

as for feeding I offer food daily, enough for all of them, but only 2 are eating and they're not eating a whole lot, #1 ate 3 small sow bugs this morning and #3 hasn't eatten anything in days now, last meal was a meal worm, and #2 has absolutely no interest in food.

For the one who has no interest in food, have you tried feeding that one by itself in complete privacy?
I have had so many problems in the past with trying to feed mine in a group that I gave it up & started feeding them each by themselves. Doing that I can see who eats what & how much.
In the fall when my pen was built I still had problems so I ended up putting food on paver bricks that I used as plates & fed them in separate corners so they would all eat rather than compete.

I have an adult who got sick & had no interest in food but waxworms turned her around so since you plan to try them I hope they work out for you as well as they did here.
Good luck with them I hope they all recover from the fungal infection.
-----
PHRatz