Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I took my ornate, Nora, out of her hibernation box to soak her and her two eyes were shut closed. I soaked her for about 45 min and put some zoo med reptile turtle eye drops (from the pet store) on both eyes. After a while one eye opened a little, and there was some white pus that came out. The other eye won't open at all. There was plenty of humidity in the box (on the humidity indicator it reached tropical level) Before putting her in the box, I didn't feed her for two weeks as she was getting sluggish. I tried not to hibernate her, but she just wanted to sleep. (Her new backyard pen wasn't finished yet so I couldn't put her outside) Before this she was very healthy, eating great, (I gave her everything for a nutritious diet that I looked up on care sheets, and she ate very well)Also she had all her vitamins every other day, so I don't think she was lacking any. Any suggestions as to what I should do? There are two vets out here that are supposed to treat turtles, but after hearing all the horror stories, about over dosing with vitamin A and other horrors, I am hesitant to bring her. Is there anything that I can do to help now? Thanks again

my male gets eye infections during brumation, due to him not closing his eyes tight, as a result he usually gets soil under his eye lids and this causes a minor infection, usually it clears in a week, keep an eye on her, soak her regularly for the next couple of days until she can open both eyes, if it doesn't clear in a week I'd go for a vet visit, make sure the water temp is around the same temp you are keeping her at.

Take your turtle to a qualified herp vet and ask them to remove any caseated pus and to provide you with a tube of opthalmic antibiotic ointment (made especially for use in eyes), and just skip the Vitamin A and the dropps you're using.... DO NOT USE NEOSPORIN or any other antibiotic ointment that is not specifically labelled for opthalmic use!
Follow the instructions carefully, and treat the turtle for the for full course (# of days and frequency of application recommended).
Letting your turtle soak in tepid water will help keep the eyes clear and will help loosen any caseated pus that may be lodged under the lids.
With any luck your turtle's eyes should clear up with a couple of weeks, but be on the lookout for signs of ear infection or upper respiratory problems, as these infections can sometimes spread.

It is important to clear the eyes because your turtle won't be interested in food if it can't see.

Wow! What an absolutely beautiful ornate! I love the thick, bright yellow barring and the lightness of her head.

I have a couple of questions...First, does her right forelimb appear to be swollen to you? Sometimes, swelling of the forelimbs can be associated with upper respiratory infections. Also, is she wheezing at all when she breaths? Any nasal discharge? At what temperature are you hibernating her?

I agree that you should try to get her to a Vet. Ornates are very succeptible to respiratory infections, and eye infections can often be a first sign. Even if this is just a simple eye infection, you will at least be able to pick up the appropriate medication. Trust me, I have TOO MUCH experience with ornate upper respiratory infections! I've finally developed a system where they no longer occur, but Vet. care has been an absolute necessity in the past.

Terryo, I'm concerned about your statements that the humidity in your enclosures are near tropical levels. People used to maintain ornates in near desert humidity, and it caused problems. Then, people started to wisen up and provide humidified shelters and such. Now, some caresheets stress the need for some humidity, but don't tell you how much. In my experience, it's best to offer ornates a moist area in which to hide. This can best be accomplished by a more moisture retentive substrate on one side of the enclosure. The ambient air humidity, though, should stay around comfortable "room humidity" (around 60%). Ornates benefit from some humidity, but constant breathing of humid air can be devastating! I understand that your turtle is hibernating, and probably buried, but this condition may have begun before hibernation. This is just something to think about. The same goes for the little baby. You may need more air circulation or a nice, hot basking light to help dry up the air a bit.

I hope things work out! I'm so glad to see a keeper who is willing to tackle these issues instead of just "hoping for the best".

Pretty ornate!

Eye problem is probably just a result of being
buried.

Usually I use the eye drops a few minutes before
I soak them to help the pus start loosening up.

Then I soak in tepid water.

If you saw one eye partially open, they will probably
clear up pretty soon.

If you aren't ready to do a full vet visit, see if your
vet will sell you some eye antibiotic ointment.
My vet recently sold me some "triple antibiotic" made
for eyes or there is some tetracycline made for eyes.

The tetracycline is available over the counter in some
places (no prescription required), not sure about the triple
antibiotic. The eye ointment usually helps speed up the
clearing process.

I kind of doubt this has anything to do with vitamin A,
but a safe way to give them a boost of vitamin A is to
force feed some baby food carrots. I usually mix it with
baby food chicken and some herptivate and maybe some gatorade.

When vitamin A is administered as beta carotine, their body
only converts what it needs to vitamin A and there isn't any danger of overdose.

Is it tetracycline, or terramycin? Terramycin is sometimes offered, and I was going to recommend it. However, I'm not quite certain about its legality as an "over the counter". If it can be obtained, it's wonderful! Of course, overuse of any antibiotic can cause long-term problems.

Well I finally found a vet in my area that is known for his work with exotics and reptiles. In fact he used to work in the SI Zoo (part of his credentials, which I looked up) He seems to come highly recommended. I am going to call tomorrow and get a apt. She is my first box turtle in such a long time, and I have to do my best for her. I keep thinking...if only my yard and her pen were finished before this cold weather came, I could have put her out there and she just could have hibernated naturally. I took advise from someone here who has box turtles, and since she dug under in her virverium, he told me to put the whole virverium in the coolest part of the house and keep the humidity high. That is what I meant when I said that the gaze read "tropical" which is the highest level on there. The temp. reads between about 67-68. I have taken her out once every 7 or 8 days to soak. When I soaked her she used to wake up but never moved around much. Her eyes were clear...just this last time they were closed. Poor Nora.I am a nervous wreck! Can't wait to get to the vet. I will keep you all posted. Thanks for the help.

Please don't be a nervous wreck. I know that's asking a lot.

Right now, Nora has some infected eyes. You're on your way to the Vet. You're doing the most cautious thing! In the grand scheme of things, infected eyes are not a huge deal. It's more a situation of what the infected eyes MAY represent. The Vet. should be able to pick up on that. Having treated Ornates in the past...you are a long way from serious problems. That's just my opinion. You are being an observant and thoughtful owner, and that's the key to preventing serious problems.

Ornates respond EXTREMELY well to hospital care. They really are tough as nails, relatively speaking. I'm sure that Ratz will agree, you can bring them back from death's doorstep! Nora just has a slight problem in the grand scheme of things.

I think you should treat Nora, bring her up to 85 to 90 degree F daytime temperatures, start offering her scrumptious living prey, don't give her very deep substrate to bury in (just barely deeper than the shell maybe), and provide 12 to 14 hours of full spectrum UVA/UVB light. Try to wake her up. Personally, I'd have to disagree with the "hibernation limbo" that was recommended. It's all or nothing with me...either full-on, 40 to 45 degree F hibernation, or summertime conditions. Can a turtle survive a period of "sub-hibernation"? Sure! However, your turtle is a stressed out, probably WC, captive in a new environment. It's a lot to ask. I hope I haven't offended you. It's not my intent.

Question - Does SI stand for Staten Island?

I have a male Ornate named Dom. This was the turtle that made me realize that I could actually keep Ornates outdoors in the Eastern US...a literal lifelong dream. I rescued him from South Carolina. He was 1/4 of his current weight, couldn't move anything but his throat when breathing, and every breath (only 2-4 per minute) spewed liquid from his open mouth. Subcutaneous fluids, dry heat, antibiotics, and time brought him back to health. I never thought he'd make it, but they're amazing animals.

I hope I haven't offended you. It's not my intent.

Question - Does SI stand for Staten Island?

Yes I am in Staten Island, and I finally found a good vet. At least that is what it looks like so far. I will let you know when I come back from her visit.
Of course you haven't offended me. I am so happy to finally find some help and suggestions from people who love turtles like I do. (believe me that is hard to find) I have been on many message boards, and for some reason people look down on others who are kind of new to turtle rearing. As I said, it has been a long time since I've had Box Turtles. I always had a tank with sliders that I've rescued from people who grew tired of them. People have actually told me that I shouldn't have them if I don't know what I am doing. If they only knew how many hours I've spent on the net looking things up, and really trying my best....I think I love them (turtles) because it is a throw back from when I was a kid, and makes me think of happier times. Also...come on...they are really the funniest, and most fun to watch. Thanks so much for all the kindness..I am waiting for them to call me back with an appt. Will keep you all posted.
Terry Oh...do you know of a good vet in SI?

No, I'm sorry, I don't know of a good Vet. there. My college friendships with Staten Islanders have dried up, as we've all moved far away and are busy with our families. I wish I could help you out.

I was asking mainly for thinking about your outdoor setup. There are some things to consider if you're keeping them outside of their native range, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. You have enough to think about now.

The vet just called..tomorrow at 2. I wish it was sooner but.. They said it will be $95. just for the visit. Exotic visit they called it. Oh well...macaroni and butter for the next week. I am sure it will be more when they get through with me with the medicine and all. In the meantime, I upped the temp. to 87 in the virverium, and am trying to get her out of sleeping, and gave her a warm soak. I cleaned her eyes with a q-tip (gently) and out came a little white pus. Say a prayer for poor Nora ..she's so sweet. The baby was up this morning. I quickly threw in a wax worm. I wish I had my camera ready..she grabbed it and ran for her hole with it. She is under a little tree now so I can't see her too well, but at least she is up and grabbing. Will keep you posted on Nora.

...me. Next time. Just dodge the need to spend $95 next time by giving the turtle choices.

By making your turtle live in a pneumonia-maker and not giving it any choice other than that, you'll have to be prepped for a long life of vet visits, or a short life, depending on the vet's and the turtle's luck.

65 degrees and high humidity are the bane of any turtle from dry country. Any of them can take it for some time. They scrape through it, that's living. But, they don't take it at length.

65 degrees doesn't slow the metabolism to hibernation. Many box turtles will be active on days of that ambient temperature, so it must not disable them. But, they can find and choose spots warmer than that, unless they're in a dark, humid box.

Always give a gradient, from below the useable to above the useable. The turtle will make the decisions. All you have to do is provide for the needed choices.

Wow $95 is alot!. I pay like $30 I think for my visits on exotics (usually they are like $40 or something like that but I get a discount). I live in upstate NY though so I guess prices are different in differnt areas.

>>Wow $95 is alot!. I pay like $30 I think for my visits on exotics (usually they are like $40 or something like that but I get a discount). I live in upstate NY though so I guess prices are different in differnt areas.

Remember Mr.Knowitall from back in the day who lived in Manhattan? I remember his vet bills were extremely high but of course like everything else that could have been a bit of stretched truth. It was somewhere between 500-800 for the spay on that RES who could've avoided surgery if he'd done what the vet said & stop letting her see all those males that stimulated her. :::rolling eyes:::
I think though I remember Petri from Queens had some pretty high prices to deal with. I've heard from rat people in that area about facing what I think of as very high prices because they have to pay the "exotic" fee as well.
It may be high to use but for the area, 95 may not be so high since it always boils down to what the market will bear.
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PHRatz

>>It may be high to use but for the area,

It may be high to US I meant not USE.. oy I hit send just as I saw that typo lol!!
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PHRatz

Yes I remember his big vet bills (that he brought on himself and his turtles).

I think I may just be lucky with my vet! I was like one of the first people to bring reptiles to her. She didn't know a ton when I first started going to her but told me she was willing to learn. I liked that a lot better than all the people who said they knew what they were doing and then messed up. I think she just gives me a good deal because I was the first reptile person and gave her most of her experience. I also bring her a lot of clients. She always says she learns something new every time I come with a new animal or rescue, lol.

>>Yes I remember his big vet bills (that he brought on himself and his turtles).

Yeah I remember too much. That's about all I can about that.. I remember too much that I'd like to forget LOL

>>
>>I think I may just be lucky with my vet! I was like one of the first people to bring reptiles to her. She didn't know a ton when I first started going to her but told me she was willing to learn. I liked that a lot better than all the people who said they knew what they were doing and then messed up. I think she just gives me a good deal because I was the first reptile person and gave her most of her experience. I also bring her a lot of clients. She always says she learns something new every time I come with a new animal or rescue, lol.

Yeah I think you are right & I know that has a lot to do with why the vet I use now is so good to me. I've given her sooo much to learn on in the 3 years I've been going to her. Rats, turtles, tortoise from me then I've sent countless snakes, frogs, rodents & parrots to her because their humans asked me where to go I sent them all there.
She's good though.. really talented at vet medicine so that's a huge bonus for me. It's a fabulous trade off.
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PHRatz

I was asking mainly for thinking about your outdoor setup. There are some things to consider if you're keeping them outside of their native range, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. You have enough to think about now.

Oh Brother...What's wrong with the outdoor set up? I hope I got this one right. I will try to get a picture in of it. I put a small fig tree, strawberry patch, grape vine, little red maple for shade. I will add more plants in the spring. I put in compost, leaf litter, and I thought it would be finished for her to hibernate, so I put in some fall leaves. The compost had lots of worms in it. Is that good? Let me know. Thanks

That's very good with the hatchling! Ornates are very clever, and the way to their heart is most certainly through their stomach. Keep doing that every time you see the little guy up...whether the food is taken or not. The turtle will start to associate you with food, and then it will come RUNNING for you when it's hungry. It's a good feeling. And yes, anyone with Ornates knows that they do in fact RUN!

No, I wasn't saying that anything is wrong with your outdoor setup. I was just curious. Seriously, don't worry about that right now.

Yikes, 95 bucks. That's the worst I've ever heard for a herp office visit. This must be a specialist.

You are right! It is terramycin!
No wonder the vet's assistant gave me a strange
look!

I'm taking tetracycline right now, which probably
caused me to get the names mixed up.

I know I have purchased it at a place that has
a vet clinic and a "farm store" over the counter,
and if you google terramycin, you get a link to
Drs. Foster and Smith and their terramycin appears
to be over the counter.

The farm store isn't close to me, so I called my vet
to see if he would just sell me something without having
to bring turtles in and he did. He helped me with the
first eye/ear infection, so he knows I've got experience
dealing with that.

He lanced this turtle's ear infection and I got the message
on my answering machine..."oh man, that was so cool.....the
pus just SHOT OUT!" Funniest message I've ever gotten, especially from a vet.

But, yeah, as far as I can tell, terramycin is over the counter.

Yeah, I wasn't sure. Very often, you'll hear horror stories about a medication. It'll be certain death if administered incorrectly. Then, boom, just like that it's fine. The companies will just say, "Oh yeah, we were wrong...it's fine." One day, tetracycline may cause blindness if administered in the eye. The next day, it's the eye drop of choice.

I've seen terramycin offered on LLLReptile. It's pretty cheap. Of course, it's not very expensive at most Vet. clinics. Who knows about the legality...Vet. medications can be funny. Often, while not illegal, the pharmaceutical companies take the approach of, "Well, the supplier didn't get it from us because we only sell to Veterinarians." In that case, they won't offer any guarantees on the product. A good example is heart worm medication (Those of you from dry areas may not have heard of this). All of those mail order companies that sell heartworm medication...well, most of the companies won't honor the efficacy. If your dog, or cat, gets heartworms while on the medication, tough luck. Whereas, if you can demonstrate that you've been purchasing it regularly from a Vet., the treatment will be entirely paid for. Ok, rant over.

It's such a great thing that your Vet. has that confidence in you. You obviously have knowledge regarding turtle healthcare. That's so important! Good turtle Vets. are the exception, and definitely not the rule.

I think that, in the case of Drs. Foster and Smith at least, they are able to sell certain products OTC because the business is (ostensibly at least) owned by two veterinarians. That's their sales pitch.

It's probably best that a qualified veterinarian be consulted the first time a problem arises, and then, armed with that experience, you can make a more informed decision about whether or not to treat your animal yourself should the problem arise again in the future.

"I think that, in the case of Drs. Foster and Smith at least, they are able to sell certain products OTC because the business is (ostensibly at least) owned by two veterinarians. That's their sales pitch."

You, and they, are correct. Foster and Smith are an exception. "In office" Veterinarians have tried to pursue lawsuits against them, and they have failed in each attempt that I'm aware of. It's a gray area, and the problem comes from Vets. that will purchase these products in bulk and then resell them to non-Vet. distributors. We used to get Pharm. reps. that came into our office who would scream and yell about the whole thing, but it was probably all an act. Sales are sales.

Sorry about getting so off of topic.

I was asking mainly for thinking about your outdoor setup. There are some things to consider if you're keeping them outside of their native range, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. You have enough to think about now.

Oh Brother...What's wrong with the outdoor set up? I hope I got this one right. I will try to get a picture in of it. I put a small fig tree, strawberry patch, grape vine, little red maple for shade. I will add more plants in the spring. I put in compost, leaf litter, and I thought it would be finished for her to hibernate, so I put in some fall leaves. The compost had lots of worms in it. Is that good? Let me know. Thanks

"Any suggestions as to what I should do? There are two vets out here that are supposed to treat turtles, but after hearing all the horror stories, about over dosing with vitamin A and other horrors, I am hesitant to bring her. Is there anything that I can do to help now? "

Ornates are prone to respiratory problems when their very specific humidity needs are not met. Althought they are from a dry climate; they dig down into the earth entering a micro habitat to reach moderate amounts of humidity.

If caught early, eye infections can be remedied with warm soaks to loosen the layers of their eyelids. You should follow up with an antibiotic which you can purchase from most Feed and Farm Supply stores. You'll need an ointment specifically made for eye infections. Look for Terramycin Ophthalmic pet eye Ointment OTC ( Over the counter). Sometime it's targeted just for lambs who are also prone to eye infections; so ask before you give up. Costs are about $10 for a small tube that will last you years if stored in a cool area.

Use only a 1/16 inch long strip of the thick ointment over the eye twice daily for the first three days, then you'll only need to use it once daily. Keep the temps up to near 88- 90 degrees F. to induce a healing condition; similar to a fever in mammals fighting an infection. Wild Boxies that are sick will naturally gravitate to these warm
temps and bask long times.

Don't try feeding until the eyes are open for at least two days. Boxies need their eyes open in order to feed; and the infection will dull his appetite. When you do start to feed him, feed very sparingly. We want him to use his acquired heat energy to fight the infection; not to digest a large meal.

I've looked at the side of his head and in my opinion; I don't believe he has any caseated cysts. They can form after long untreated infections. They present themselves a bit differently. I have removed a few of these myself; however to be sure you may wish to check with a good rep vet.

I think we can turn this eye infection around with diligence and helping the boxie to channel his energies and immune system.

Keep us posted.

Ric K.

I have no advice to add after reading what everyone has said. It's all covered & yes I agree that ornates are tough as nails!

About the terramycin ointment- it is OTC. I have many many different pet supply catalogs that sell it other than Foster's & Smith. I really doubt that it's illegal anywhere in the US to buy it outright without prescription.
I can't wait to hear the report after this gorgeous ornate has seen the vet.
Good luck!!
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PHRatz

Somehow I posted incorrectly and have this post out of sync even though it was posted earlier than the continuing thread.

The med in question has always been available over the counter in Feed & Farm Stores, Horse Tac Co-Ops or Cenex Co Ops...just as you can buy worming pills and save the vet bill. I worm my Siberian husky with the same meds that my vet uses and save the Vet bill. However I understand if one is not comfortable without using a Vet.

Regarding buying online for your meds ... F & G is a great dependable company.

However the time delay for processing, shipping/ delivery when you need it NOW is a consideration; which is why I think checking out local places to buy it is prudent.

I still believe it's better to hold off feeding especially when your considering giving antibiotics. Consider letting the boxie use his absorbed heat to fight off the infection; and not to digest food at this point. If well hydraded, he will not be compromised missing a few meals. Also the antibiotic has a tendency to get ingested while treating the eye and upsets the digestive system (wipes out the intestinal flora), not allowing for absorption of foodstuffs and can cause vomiting.

You've got plenty of really good advice from many posters.

Hope your boxie turns around for you quickly.

Ric K.

Yeah, you can find alot of things at farm/feed stores.
I noticed recently at one of ours that they had panacur
for dogs and cats and it was over the counter.

They've always had it for livestock, but the stuff for
dogs and cats should be easier to break down into a
turtle dosage.