Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello I'm a high school student an dim doing a research paper on whether or not reptiles are capable of showing emotion. Any personal experiences or helpful web sites would be very appreciated. thank you

Of course! Do you have any? If you have any tame reptile, its probably shown it one way or another. I dont care about all the reptiles-brains-are-too-small mumbo jumbo crap. Theyre animals and show affection no matter what the experts say. Even fish show affection. My friends pufferfish would come up to greet him every morning, eat out of his hands(hard to do with that beak) and would even let him pet him. Not all reptiles are willing to show affection. It would have to be a captive-bred animal and a species that responds to handling. Beardies, Blue tongue skinks, prehensile tailed skinks, savannahs, ackies, water monitors, frillies, iguanas, boas, pythons, the list goes on and on. But Im sire you get the point. A wild-caught 8 foot croc monitor will NOT show affection. Get my drift? Anyway, my bearded dragon, Draco, will often snuggle up under my arm and sleep while watching TV with me. Even in the daytime when he wouldnt be tired. Sometimes my cresty, Spunky, will come up to the front of the cage and greet me. Crested Lady(a gecko breeder, if shes not a member here I know shes on the Pangea forums) reports that her chahua geckos will come up to the front of her cage, jump to her shoulder and stay there while she does the daily care stuff. I have heard of iguanas and monitors who will come when their name is called WITHOUT A FOOD TREAT, just for a cuddle. Im sure tons of people will agree. Anyway, hope your paper goes well! Cheers! FREE THE DUBUQE 3!!!

Ryan

With all due respect to Ryan, I have to disagree with him.

I've got over 30 years experience with reptiles and they clearly lack the ability to show affection and/or emotion. The part of the brain responsible for dealing with affection/emotion is either undeveloped or absent in reptiles. I can't remember which. I wish I had a link to give you as proof but I don't.

The things Ryan mentioned are "learned responses." When I open the cage of my 11 foot and 8 foot Burmese Pythons they "greet" me. No, they aren't coming to actually greet me because they're happy to see me, they know that I'm about to take them out of their cage and let them crawl around.

How many animal acts do you see performed by reptiles? Zilch! You see birds or mammals. Shamu is a mammal.

Have a great day!
Mike
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I don't "know" if reptiles are capable of affection. I'm sure there are many opinions on both sides. I assume that hard science would argue against it. But, I'm sure lots of anecdotal “evidence” would suggest all sorts of emotional responses.

However, be careful not to confuse instinctual and learned responses with emotional responses. Consider this example: My wife is upset, so I ask her “what’s wrong”, listen carefully, give her a big hug and kiss. Was my behavior A) because I love her and care how she feels? OR B) Because I’m hungry and I know from experience that she’s not likely to cook me a nice dinner when she’s upset? (I’m NOT telling)

Bringing it back to reptiles, consider this example: I once owned a garter snake that would crawl onto my outstretched arm, starting at the tip of my middle finger and crawling up to the crook of my arm. To the casual observer, this seemed like a definite sign of affection. However, this was actually a learned feeding response. I actually trained that snake over several months. I started by hand feeding him pre-killed minnows. I then started laying the minnow on my middle finger. Then over time I progressively moved the minnows to my palm, then my wrist, then slowly further and further up my arm. In the beginning I left a scent trail for him to follow. Then I started leaving a scent trail less and less often. Ultimately, he learned to crawl all the way onto my arm with or without a minnow. I believe this showed definite cognition but NOT affection.

Now consider some anecdotal examples given by “Loconorc”:

“My bearded dragon, Draco, will often snuggle up under my arm and sleep while watching TV with me. Even in the daytime when he wouldnt be tired.” --- Draco may simply have discovered that the spot under Loconorc’s is warm, safe and secure. Also, he may have learned that Loconorc will stop trying to handle him if he hunkers down and appears to sleep.

“Sometimes my cresty, Spunky, will come up to the front of the cage and greet me.” --- Spunky may have learned to associate the arrival of Loconorc with the arrival of food or fresh water. Is he greeting his “friend” or seeking food?

“Crested Lady … reports that her chahua geckos will come up to the front of her cage, jump to her shoulder and stay there while she does the daily care stuff.” --- Does Crested lady ever feed the geckos while they are on her shoulder? I’m betting that she does. Maybe not always, but often enough for the geckos to learn that her shoulder is a likely place to find a meal.

“I have heard of iguanas and monitors who will come when their name is called WITHOUT A FOOD TREAT, just for a cuddle.” --- Maybe they like the warmth of the “cuddle” and have learned that certain sounds indicate that the strange but warm creature they live with is now willing to share some warmth. However, my guess is that this is just a feeding response. An iguana or monitor in the wild is attracted to rustling sounds because the rustling is often caused by something edible. In captivity they could easily adapt this instinct to respond to the sound of their name. Maybe their keeper doesn’t always feed them after calling their name, but often enough for the reptile to make the association.

Sorry, if I got a little long winded. Good luck with your paper. It sounds like a fun topic for a high school paper.

If you dont agree, you must not enjoy your reptiles.... :/ I said I dont care about the hard science brain mumbo jumbo. Those scientists obviously dont know what its like keeping them. I thought everyone here would agree. Reptiles have feelings. They just express them in different ways. My cresty isnt hand fed and she comes up anyway. Yes, she does get to climb on the fake tree for an hour or so, but she comes regardless. As I said, some reptiles express afection more readily than others. After all, wouldnt they like you anyway if you gave them food and warmth(from cuddling, not heating). Still, Im kinda dissapointed that you guys are so scientific about this. I keep mine for the affection they show me, and the ones that dont I keep for their beauty. Semi-peace out!

Dissapointed, Ryan

Ryan,

I'm sorry if my post seemed cold. It was not my intent to be a kill joy. I was simply trying to reply to the original question with my opinion, and give "Pnev24" another perspective for his/her research.

I'm delighted that you have an emotional bond with your herps. Even if (and I say "if" because I'm truly unsure) your herps responses are not emotional, they clearly indicate that you are taking good care of your herps. They would be unlikely to respond positively to someone that did not provide well for them.

The main point of my post was that some behaviors that seem emotional MAY actually have other causes. My novice opinion is that reptiles do not have emotions, but I could certainly be wrong.

Regarding my enjoyment of my reptiles, I don't currently keep any reptiles. I am strictly a catch and release field herper. I gave up keeping herps after I realized that I enjoyed the hunt MUCH more than the husbandry. To me, the joy of herping comes from observing them in the field and learning about their natural behaviors (not to mention the thrill of the hunt!). Obviously, you find great joy in daily interaction with your captives. I think that is wonderful and your herps are fortunate to have such a caring and dedicated caretaker.

Best wishes to you and your happy herps!

Daryl

I tend to partially agree with loconorc, especially when beardies are concerned. They are certanly sociable. I've heard monitors are also quite friendly, but I've never really spent much time with a captive one.

You say that you are more a catch and release type of guy. I think that perhaps your different approach to herping gives you a different point of view? I dunno, just a thought.

(P.S. loconorc, I'm the dude you met from SPPF. I decided to join. )

"You say that you are more a catch and release type of guy. I think that perhaps your different approach to herping gives you a different point of view? I dunno, just a thought."

I'm sure you are correct about that. We all bring our own unique perspective to everything we say and do. Obviously, my decidedly short interactions with the herps I deal with will never allow for any type of emotional bond.

However, I should note that I have kept 100's of herps (mostly snakes and a few lizards) in my day. Many of them as long-term captives. Some of them treated as favorite pets. A few of those showed behaviors that COULD have been interpreted as emotional. In particular was the garter snake from my original post and a collared lizard that used the climb up my arm and perch on my shoulder as I studied, tended other herps, or just walked around.

I have never worked with beardies or monitors, but I will concede your point that they (and iguanas) at least SEEM much more emotional than most herps. Then again, it makes perfect sense that any diurnal foragers with a high metabolism would have instinctual behaviors that could appear emotional in a captive setting.

· Attracted to by various sounds and movement = more likely to approach their keepers, look them in the eye (eyes move a lot), watch TV, etc.
· Highly developed and very active thermoregulation behavior = seeki the warmth of docile human, explore a little, return to warm human, explore, back to warm human, etc.
· Extremely aware of faces = Likely to pay special attention to the faces of their keepers.
· Seeking high points to watch for prey activity = climbing up on docile humans as one of highest elevations in the immediate area (especially if this behavior is reinforce by occasional feeding while the herp is perched).
· Active in the light = not likely to constantly seek a hiding place and hunker down.
· Fast learners and able to learn what animals represent a threat (example: lizards living near cattle troughs hardly flinch when cattle approach –except to get out of their direct path) = Show no fear of their keepers.

Alrighty, you joined! ^^ Hey Vantage! I sent you another PM on SPPf. Hows your new leo doing? Anyway, about emotions: This has kinda gone from "Do reptiles show affection?" which is debateable, to "Do they have feelings at all" which is set in stone. All animals, inverts included, show EMOTION. Not all animals show all emotion, but some are universal. Fear is an emotion, happiness, anger, all the basic emotions are shown by pretty much every animal. A tarantul can get pissed off. Thats an emotion. A shark can be scared. Thats an emotion. Get my point? We are talking about AFFECTION, not emotion. I mentioned that herps show affection differently than we do. Since they cant talk, they have to show it different than we do. They cant kiss, say "I love you", or hug. Well I guess pythons can . So instead of actually telling you, which some hardheads think is the only way to show affection, they will give you a cuddle. And one of you mentioned they notice faces. Thats most certainly true. Reptiles recongnize people. It may not be faces, but it could be smell or voice. My cresty wigs out if someone other than me picks her up. Shell squirm and jump maybe squeak. But when I come in, she is calm, cool, and collected. Im sure all of you people who disagree with our affection debate agree that they can at least recognize people one way or another. There is a famous saltie (I forgot his name, but Im pretty sure he was in Florida, although I think he died) who had a HUGE bond with its keeper. It was on Amazing Animal Videos if you remember. But this guy could walk in, kiss it on the lips, sit on it, do whatever he wanted. Im not sure how to explain it, but you can probably find the video on Animal Planet's webiste somewhere. I cant change your mind about this, but I can show my side of the debate. Also, Im writing a story about Megalania prisca (a prehistoric giant monitor beleived to be still in existance, go look it up). Be sure to check it out when I post it here! It will also be on cryptozoology.com. My name there is the same as here. Cheers! Be sure to tune in to Ocean's Deadliest on Sunday night!

Ryan

Sorry if I rambled!

"Anyway, about emotions: This has kinda gone from "Do reptiles show affection?" which is debateable, to "Do they have feelings at all" which is set in stone."

You're right. Not sure what I was thinking when I substituted the term emotion for affection. My points (at least in my mind) were directed toward affection and other personal emotions (love, hatred, sympathy, etc). I certainly agree that they experience the more primal or instinctual emotions (fear, excitement, etc).

Also, please note that I'm still hedging my bets on the topic. I don't presume to "know" what happens in any herps mind.

BTW, I too am a big crypto fan! I'll be watching for the update on the big lizard.

I've been reading this post, and felt the need to join in. I have taken several classes and learned about the human and several animal brains, and while they all show basic homology, there are several differences in how all of them are structured. A human brain is significantly larger in the parts of the brain that deal with cognitive thought, which is related to emotion. For example, a sheep's brain is much smaller in this department, if not lacking in a functional sense altogether. All reptiles, indeed, most all animals, do not show "emotion". It is all of a learned response. Even dogs, those creatures that we associate with "knowing" our emotions, are merely responding in the manner of a pack animal recognizing the hierarchy of the superior animal. No dog is truly sorry for the accident left on the rug, rather, it is responding to the fact you got visibly angry and spanked it on the nose. The same can be said for reptiles. They are among the most basic forms of life, and therefore do not have the same brain development/structure as our own. All the "emotions" that a reptile shows are without a doubt learned responses. My leopard geckos know that when I place my hands in their tank it is to feed them, and to perhaps glean a little heat from me, not because I am satisfying some deep primordial urge to respond to another being on some level.
In all events, this post is getting lengthy, and I feel I have supported my argument, and I will reply to any civil responses. Thank you.

Loconorc, I never got your message... wierd. I've sent you two, did you get them?

Yeah, the Leo is fine. He's gone quite dull etc., so he's aabout to shed. All hail my first herp shed. Ever!

Sorry about the fact this post is off topic...

How is the paper coming along?

It would be great if you could post a link to it on this forum. I'd be very interested in reading it.

Here are a few websites that you may find helpful. Like the various posts on this thread, they offer a variety of opinions.

Taming and Training Your Reptile - www.petstation.com/reptame.html

Anthropomorphism and Reptiles - www.anapsid.org/anthrop.html

Interesting old thread in Herp Center Network on “Do Herps Have Feelings?” - www.herpcenter.com/showthread.php?t=3815

Well first of all i would like to thank everyone who has replied to my post. I turned in my outline for my paper yesterday but i decided to change my topic to choosing a reptile over a mammal as a pet. I made the decision due to the broadness of what the term affection could be. I only have 8 pages to write my paper too. I will add more posts as the paper devolops. again thank you to everybody who has been helping.