Reptile & Amphibian Forums

anyone know a healthy weight for an adult bosc? i have read any where from 1.6lbs-30lbs. can anyone narrow the margin for a healthy weight in captivity?
i was also wondering about the aestivating and hibernating periods; are they controlled by environment conditions, or are they hardwired in to the lizard?
i have read they can lose up to 30% of their weight, is this the same in captivity?
i know my boa fasts every winter regardless of constant temps. could the same be said about bosc monitors? what about other monitors?

our sav is going through fasting spurts. we thought he was just being a picky eater; he has not eaten in 2 1/2 weeks. today we force fed him. all his fat stores have broken down and he has lost about 30% of his weight. all this BS started happening once he hit 3 feet. we can not even get a good fecal sample to have him checked for parasites, since he will not eat.

i am growing very tired of monitors. it seems no matter what i read, or find out i still have nothing but problems with this group of reptiles. what really upsets me is the ones that appear to thrive in far worse conditions. i read one book and it is completely contradicted by the next book. is this why nobody is successfully breeding savs and waters? they are just too difficult to keep?

either way if we lose this guy i am finished with these animals. in my 8 years of reptile keeping i have never had this many problems.

Hmmm I always found that you could nail a monitor to a board and they’d be ok as long as you kept their temps right and food / water close hahaha.

I think it was Frank Retes that posted somewhere he has had an adult ackie since ’92 that has had no use of all its legs for years and does just fine…and from what I understand his great success through the years (decades lol) has always been to listen to the monitors and respond by adjusting his husbandry to match their range of needs…as they, not him or any other human, are the true experts.

I suggest you go to ProExotics.com and buy Bennett’s The Savannah Monitor Lizard: The truth about Varanus exanthematicus for the latest and best monitor husbandry information as well as everything on their Monitor ProPack. Also search through these forums for everything posted by FR and Robyn and read it twice (others provide great info too, just keeping it simple). Then think long and hard about what regarding your husbandry caused this condition in your monitor and adjust. Hint: monitors do not go through 'spurts' of fasting that I have ever seen...this is a huge clue you are killing this guy slowly my friend.

The reason savs and waters are rarely cb is simple economics, they generally are not worth the time, effort and resources required when they are readily available at such cheap prices as wc or fh. Now if people would be willing to pay $200 for a cb sav and $400 for a cb water you may see more of them.

Good luck!

Tom

Frank i know who you are. i have been keeping monitors for a little over 3 years. our salvator just passed away of egg yolk peritonitis. she was around 5 feet and laid 3 clutches for us like clock work. i am not sure why she held the last one and had problem, nothing was changed.

our sav turns 2 (i thought this month rachel thinks next month)and only started this fasting when he hit 3 feet.

the temps are 130 basking and 78F cool side. so feeding and heating is not working.

any more ideas? we are thinking it might be internal parasites. in Oct. his blood work was excellent so we know it is not organ related (liver/kidneys).

as far as boas, in my 8 years of keeping i can tell you they always fast during the winter, if not fed on a schedule. Brazil can have cool months but the fasting is probably due to the circadian rhythms (biological clock). i have talked to many keepers on this (all like myself keep temps constant)and all have agreed it occurs.

"Egg yolk peritonitis,the presence of yolk material in the coelomic cavity. Yolk material by itself induces a mild inflammatory response and may be reabsorbed by the peritoneum. Because yolk is an excellent growth medium for bacteria, peritonitis may result from secondary bacterial infection."

"Localized to diffuse fibrinous peritonitis may result, and may lead to secondary ascites and organ inflammation or compromise in chronic cases."
"Lodgment of eggs in the oviduct probably due to reverse peristalsis brought about by breakage of the thin-shelled eggs and secondary bacterial infection."
"Some of the symptoms also mimic egg binding."

I found a little information recently on this. If an egg broke open inside it could cause this, seems as if maybe brought on by sudden stress, or traumatic event.

As far as weight is boscs goes, common sense would say that 30lbs is referring to an old book when the albig was classified as a subspecies of the bosc. A healthy bosc being 4ft plus would weigh around 10 lbs, an obese lard bucket might weigh 20lbs at 4ft long, not a long living monitor at all. The range you found starts with wild examples at a little over 1ft long and goes up to adult albigs for those weights. Even the old books I have in my collection say from 2-10lbs (depends on size) but obese examples weighing up to 15lbs.
I do have to get some new pics, heres 33lbs and about 6ft 6inches plus in an albig. Note thats a 67lb plus husky 2ft away. Someday Ill remeasure her, its been a while. She just keeps growing.

First you have some unreal beliefs. Boas, ONLY come from areas that do not get cold. So they do not hibernate or whatever word you choose to use.

Savs are the same. They come from areas very near the equator. Both these animals expand or contract their activity based on wet/dry seasons. When its dry, they stay hidden, but not cold. In otherwords, neither one of these are friggin gardersnakes in Canada. Ones from equatorial america and the others from equatorial africa.

The reason no one breeds Savs and waters is, you cannot afford to. They both are imported at prices that are below what it takes to produce them. Savs come it at a price about equal or less then, one weeks feeding for the adult pair. Waters come in at a higher price. But keeping adults is many many many times more expensive then keeping adult Savs.

These cheap imports also depress the market for all species. So breeding monitors is not a easy task, when you can go and buy another species like a Sav for $19.95 or less. Until that changes, there is no reason to breed them. Consider, breeding larger monitors in captivity is work and takes space. Both have a value that exceeds breeding cheap monitors.

Back to monitors feeding. When they are in the right conditions, they feed like pigs, no wait, thats not true, pigs do not even come close. They feed on everything and anything they can get in their mouths. If they do not, you are not doing something right. End of that story.

About books. I feel for you, most not only suck, but are totally headed in the wrong direction. Just look at the survival rates of monitors. Its so low, that there is room for millions more every year, not to good for an animals that easily lives one to two or more decades. This includes both imports and captive hatched.

Don't get me wrong, there are some parts of books that are usable for captives. As there is some good information on their natural history. The problem is its buried so deep, its very hard to seperate the dishes from the dishwater.

Even the best books forget to tell you whats important and whats not important. For instance, They tell you how to do something. But forget to mention how to measure what you did. The measurement is always the progress of the subject, the actual monitor itself. If its doing poorly(like yours) then what your doing is wrong. Like what your doing. If its doing well, then your doing well.

As far as I can tell, monitor keepers practice fear management. That is, they will do all this and that to prevent something bad, but forget to allow something good. For instance, these keepers worry all about this and that, and do this and that to prevent whatever the heck they are worried about. The problem is, they forget to give the poor captive what it actually needs and that is to have a life. Once the monitors has a life, they do not get all that this and that keepers are trying to prevent. Consider, your task is to give them a life, not keep their heart beating.

I know this sounds pretty stinking basic, and well, it is. Monitor keepers and their literature, suck. Plain and simple.

In case you are not aware, I have bred many many species, large and small, to many many generations. Like around 15 or more species past 5 generations. Some past 15 generations.

All I can say is, got me. I do not do anything I am suppose to do(according to the books) I simply, "heatum and feedum" and they will not stop growing and producing. Oh, and they live forever. Yes, forever, some I am hatching now, could outlive me, so for all intends and purposes, thats forever. My oldest large monitor is 22plus, and my oldest small monitor is 18 plus years. Both are great great great great, plus, grandparents.

And don't go telling me to write a book, I just wrote what is important. Go by your monitors results and FEEDUM. Oh the heatum part is, they need a range of temps from very hot, 135F plus, cool, 70F or even less, and they will do the rest. Of course theres a ton of little things that are totally dependant on your monitors individual results. But they are actually little tiny, in field adjustments, based soley on the monitors individual tastes and preferences. Done, cheers

FR wrote, "And don't go telling me to write a book"

Frank, you should write a book.

Tom

LOLOL, be careful Tom

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

..boas go off feed during the"winter" months because its breeding time (im breeding my boas right now...hopefully)
...my monitors are still eating like well....monitors,my male just turned 2 and is a little over 3' and weighs about 6-7 lb.s
and hes never once gone off feed....you may consider a vet visit before you give up hope...

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0.1 c.b.97' 9'6" 62 lb. Colombian Boa "Scarlet"
1.0 c.b.02' 6' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 17" Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
1.0 wc 3' Savannah Monitor "Ozzy"
0.0.1 wc 1'Savannah Monitor "Uggy"
1.0 c.b. 04' 4' Everglades Yellow Ratsnake "Pooh"
1.0 c.b.? 5' Candycane Albino Corn "Oogie Boogie"
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

about 12-18 inches of dirt / sand / peat moss mix. basking spot is 135F+, the middle where he likes to lay is 90F, the bottom is 80F, and in his hide is 75F.

he is on no feeding schedule we offer every 2 days. roaches, horn worms, shrimp, cat fish, rodents, egg, and quail.

i consider your diet to be unnecessarily exotic. feed rodents, feed insects. done. forget the other stuff. it has questionable nutritional value.

your basking spot doesn't look nearly large enough for that size monitor. what is 130F? one spot? for that 130F to be effective, it would have to be 130F throughout an entire area that the entire monitor can fit into. just judging by the pics, i am guessing that would be an area 2 ft in diameter or more.

i don't know what is wrong with your animal, but judging only from limited info and those pics, those are my two best guesses.

best of luck.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

This puzzles me, everybody knows large varanids spend most of there time at ground level or under ground, why is it that most keepers offer hem elevated basking?

Heck even for my crocs and tree monitors I provided floor level basking.

Really with all that dirt, it’s a shame you don’t set those floods where the matter most.

the basking shelf is about 4 feet long. 130F is an average. some spots on the shelf are 150F some are 120F.

an elevated basking spot is the easiest way to get a good temp gradient. for a 60F temp gradient in a 1 level cage we would need a 15 ft. long cage. odds are everyone here has an elevated basking spot, be it a shelf, a Retes stack, or a pile of flat rocks.

i forgot to mention the diet. shell fish and fish are known to lower cholesterol, while rodents tend to higher cholesterol levels. the bugs were added when he started to turn down everything else. basically any food is better than no food, at least until his appetite comes back.

Cholesterol in shellfish , insects, rodents, etc.
In the past when I tried advice from several sources and set my cages with a good temp gradient, etc I had my vet (now moved, and so now did their last vet, to Texas) take blood tests to see what differences these prey items made. No difference with rodents, birds, insects, in the same living conditions.
I dont know where the idea came from with rodents being high fat or cholesterol (maybe when not allowed to make proper use of them) compared to the other foods. Yet common sense tells me that a hatchling bird (day old) would be physically much higher in fat levels (full of yoke), yet they do not effect the blood levels.
I did see a rise in fat levels in one blood test, when Sobek was not eating for weeks (right before she was egg bound, and during), she was mobilizing her fat reserves to fill those eggs, and to make use of them while she was not eating, then less so when she was eating small meals at that time.
After she was eating regularly and retested the levels had dropped way down (she was eating a day old peep or 2 a day).
I could see where a blood test would give you a bad result feeding insects. With insects much more food and mass is required to do the same things. If fed insects in what may appear the same amounts instead of whole larger animals, the animal may mobilize some reserves giving a higher fat reading if they are active.

To not eat for a few weeks, or depending on physical size and age for 3-4 weeks. With the way I set my cages up they do not lose any weight during this time. Its doesnt coincide with any certain time of year, with less light, with lower temps, they just do it. It varies from the hottest summer times, to cooler times, to fall, to spring, to winter, it could be any time.
I think they just are saying "I dont need any food right now".
Keep in mind they never do this until they reach a certain size and at least 3-6 or more years old.
I havent seen this with my flavi-argus, but then again he is always hungry, never with my ackies (not for more than a week or 2).

shvar, most red meat is high in cholesterol. studies in humans show shell fish, and fish lower bad cholesterol levels. I do not see why it would work any differently in a carnivore than an omnivore. My vet agrees also, that too much red meat in not a garbage disposal (Nile, Albig, Water) can have life threatening affects. As far as the peritonitis no one has yet to figure out why it happens or signs to look for. Stress seems to be just the easiest to blame.

My bet is, the ground level is toooooooo cold. Thats where the basking should be.

Don't get me wrong, you can still have a basking area up high, but its more important down low.

When I was new, I used a lot of tall cages. I did offer two or even three basking areas, and that was with tree monitors too.

Sometimes people get a little confused and complicated. Yes Savs climb, but they normally only climb for a reason. In nature, they may go up when it floods(common sense here) Or is there is a food source up high. Or even for smaller reasons, like to see. In the wet season, grasses make it impossible to see any distance, so monitors often climb up for a good vantage point. But they always have a reason.

In a cage. You may think its pretty but the monitor could care less about pretty. They want stuff. If there is stuff they need at the time, then cool.

Another for instance, you have lots of green stuff. Monitors mostly like dead trees or dead hollows of live trees. They want them to be with sun exposure, no shade. For cooling, they do down or in. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but its not yours. They like dirt with holes that go WAYYYYYYYYY down. But the down has to have what it wants, the right range of temps and a base humidity. Not wet or dry. Cheers

I agree with Jobi as well. Monitors like to bask at the entrance of their burrow.

Of the top of my head, the first questions I had were: is your apartment on the ground floor and is the cage directly on the floor?

I have dealt with this person before on other fora and I know they will not listen. Razeraze is already mocking your (FR's) response over on the Dutch forum. Man, people suck.

Cheers

i was not mocking merely stating "heat um and feed um" was not very elaborate advice. this advice is much better and we will run it by the vet as well as get other opinions. it is a step in the right direction.

neal FR also recommended ignoring books yet you told me to buy more books. we do not always agree no reason to get nasty. i posted i do not post here often because the advice is always the same, and what we are currently doing. NEW ADVICE is what we needed.

thank you FR, jobi, neal and robyn.

Using that simple phrase, Heatum and feedum. I have most likely produced more monitors then anybody on that dutch forum and most likely all of them put together. If not, pretty dang close. Which means, I do not have problems with monitors. I do generation after generation, species after species. All the same, all heatum and feedum. Its all about results.

They can make it as complicated as they like. Too bad, its not.

Heres the deal, people who fail, want a reason they failed. They want it to be difficult and complicated. They want it that way so they have good reason to fail. Its very difficult for people to admit they failed at something easy.

With me, I made it simple and I do not have problems. Monitors are fairly simple. You give them a life and they will make a life. They make lots of lives. Cheers

thank you both again. anyone knows i am more than willing to admit my failures and ask advice. i truly appreciate your advice here. we will make changes and let you all know how it goes.

FR i am not about who has bred more or longevity, i am about who can answer my questions and help me understand why i am running into complications and how to fix them.

i do not find monitors easy. iguanas, snakes, turtles are easy. even tegu seem to adjust better than monitors and are doing well in captivity.

what drives me absolutely nuts is seeing monitors in far less conditions do well.

thanks again.

tom

I mentioned above, what I think monitors like. As opposed to what some think is pretty.

Now you state others have their monitors do better in lesser conditions then yours. Sir, the result is what dictates greater or lesser. If your monitors are doing poorly, then without question, those conditions are lesser. If a monitor is doing doing great, then without question, those conditions are greater.

Something to think about, many here thinks its important to "know" this and that, to be right about this and that, etc. I could careless about such things, if a monitor is doing poorly, I am at fault, PEROID. I am temporarily wrong. I must then change something. You see, whats right is how well the monitor is doing. I am allowed to adjust husbandry, heck, I am allowed to completely reverse my approach is necessary. Husbandry is doing what allows your monitor to do well. Its not about rules or this or that. Its not about being right. Its not about what you think is pretty, or what mistaken imagine of how monitors live. Or even now wild monitors live. Its about how your individual monitor progresses in YOUR care.

Last, you mentioned you want help, but I have no idea of what you do or how you go about it. ITs pretty hard to help, without intimate knowledge of your husbandry.

From what you have shown, your cage floor temps are too cool. Thats my GUESS. But I can only guess from what you have shown. Several have mentioned that. Your task is to apply what works. Your task is to pick from all these responses and see what works. I wish you well. Cheers

FR, when I say less i do not mean aesthetically. I mean no substrate or simply wood chips, no wide basking area, no large water dish, no hides etc....

When you wrote about books in your first post, it seemed as though you were talking about entry level books on monitor husbandry. That is what I thought, and I imagine FR might have thought the same.

When I mentioned various books to you a few months ago, you were ranting about the 'scientific' nature of your methods and 'experiments'. I pointed out that you were not familiar with more advanced varanid literature. If you are in interested in the scientific stuff, you should seek out some of the more advanced varanid literature. I'm not sure how much that will help you with your current husbandry issues. In fact I agree with FR... You should ignore the books!

Heres the deal. your job is to find a way, if you want to make it complicated, go for it. Your the one with the problem. Not me or Neal. That is very much the key here. You can twist and turn words all you want. It will not change me in any way. Its only hurting your monitor. Or worse, others and their charges.

Theres one problem with running it by your Vet, hes not keeping the monitor YOUR ARE. Vets can fix your errors to a point. But your the one who has to apply husbandry that works.

About making decisions, after all, keeping monitors no more then a series of decisions. I use that simple term that has worked so well, "heatum and feedum". You say its not good or some such thing. You know you are missing the point. If you do not understand that simple term in ways you can use. Then your decision is to ask a better more appropriate question or series of questions. Questions that may lead to help. I do wish your monitor well. Cheers

Thank you FR. We made changes to the cage and have started him on Flagyl. My first question was very specific. only shvar has said anything regarding a healthy weight numbers, or seasonable fasting. The more i look the less i find people who have bred savs or kept savs for longer than 6 years. I am beginning to believe they are far different diet wise to waters and albigs. who knows how else the differ in captivity.

thank you. the cage is 4 feet tall with 1-2 feet of dirt. i will run the greenery idea by my vet and see what he says.

thanks again.

"any logical advice? @#$% told me to "heat 'um and feed 'um" oh and to "stop believing in those books" now i remember why i don't post there (desperation drove me to it)."

FR that is what i said. i thank you for helping me and the new ideas.

What is really funny, is that Frank's name appears as "@#$%" on that forum.

So, Fellas am I on the right track. Neal, when I described my Nile cage to you told me to make the substrate (I'll be using dirt) deeper than 12", I got this bright idea to run the pondliner 3' up in one corner of the cage. This way I can make a 2' plus pile of dirt up into the corner and along the back about 2/3 of the way across the length of the cage with the lights right above the mound. This way the top of the dirtpile will be the basking area. Does this sound ok?

Roger

Don't expect your monitor to follow along with your plan. He will rearrange the dirt to his liking with no regard for your ideas about where the dirt should be piled.

Cheers

Somehow, I thought you would say that.
Thanks

FR-
I agree with what you are saying, but is it always a problem with no ground basking site? When I built my water's cage, I knew I was going to use leaf litter, so I purposely raised my basking site off the litter(in fear of starting a fire). Also, I like this because it left room to move around and grow.
This is the largest cage I've had the chance to work with and soon to be the largest individual to work with.

Thanks-
Kakes