Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off, a little about the baby turtles. They're Orante Box turtles, laid by my female in the outdoor pen... supposedly the previous Fall. May 8th I checked my turtle pen and was surprised to find hatchlings crawling out from under a small pile of rock and flagstone pieces (moved there during that Winter), upon moving the stones and light digging I found 7 altogether. The next day I found a wild hatchling in the middle of our large black top driveway, it was tired and looked as if the heat was starting to get to it. So I soaked and added it to the rest of my bunch inside, it perked up and to this day is doing great.

Intial setup was a large rubber maid tub, heat mat under warm side, normal 40watt light bulb on during the day for additional heat and extra light, and a 18" florescent desert glow 8.0 suspended 8" above the substrate. During the summer in this setup all but one ate veggies and greens voraciously. Even though the tub was large it was still a bit cramped for 8 hatchlings, so all insects where hand fed to each turtle, one at a time, outside of the tub to prevent fighting and to make sure each got the same amount.

Late August I moved them to a 60gal tank, this provided more running room, better length for a heat gradient and easier to keep proper humidity in. Again with heat mat under the warm
end, a red bulb on that end to help keep the temp in the 90s during the day and 84-88F at night. Florescent tube was put over water dish and main walking path to insure they would
get exposure, but closer at 7-6" from the substrate. Regular 40watt bulb was added to other end of the aquarium to provide more light during the day and raise the ambient air temp 4 degrees. A long 48" florescent tube is used to add light during the day as well, this isn't used for UVB as it's too far from the substrate to be of any use. Hides are at each end with lots of fake plant cover.

Upon moving to the larger aquarium they became more shy and every single baby refused veggies, occasionally one or two of them will still pick at the veggies I offer but with no real interest overall. They are not fed on pellets of any kind as they will not eat them and generally seem repelled by the smell. At this time they all seem to be in carnivorous mode. This of course has them growing, which brings me to the problem.

The size difference bothers me.
Shown together in the pic are the largest and smallest of the turtles, the others are only slightly smaller than the largest. The largest's carapace is 2 and 5/8th", the smallest being around 1 and 3/8th".

The smaller one is very shy and is occasionally bullied away from the food, so I feed it with hemastats behind a plant so it feels more secure and can't see me. All feedings are monitored to make sure every single one of them gets plenty, so it's unlikely lack of food keeping it smaller. Also I find it in the same hiding places as the others, it's not forced to hide in less desirable hiding places because of the others. At the moment I'm considering putting it back in the original tub by itself and seeing if that has any effect on growth.

My only conclusion is maybe it's stress? Could this really keep it that much smaller? Or could it be because this was the one turtle that didn't want to eat veggies over the summer?

Any suggestions would be appreciated

It isn't unusual for this sort of thing to happen: all it takes is for one hatchling to be a little more aggressive about eating, and another to be a little too intimidated by the others. It happens here frequently, and I have several examples of that here right now with my easterns.
What I do if this starts to happen is I will put the largest in a setup by itself, if I see that it is bullying the others (sometimes I separate them anyway because the small ones can be intimidated by a much larger setup-mate), and I will put the smallest in its own setup so that it no longer has competition. This typicaly results in the 'runts' getting more to eat, undisturbed, and they then will put on some size and weight at a faster rate than before.
Another consideration is this: I have found that the hatchlings that start eating earliest in life start growing earlier and faster and never really look back. The hatchlings that are reluctant eaters those first few days or weeks of life just don't catch up (in size) with their larger siblings until later in life. They eventually get there, though.

Thanks! I'm glad to know it isn't too uncommon. As for the other 7, not a single one will back down from another or try to hide from me. They all ate the very first day I brought them in, I thought this was sort of odd at the time but they were an over wintered nest.
(the one on the right is after a mealworm )

Nice hatchlings! Baby ornates are so much fun.

I second everything that StephF said.

I do have a couple of things to add. StephF stated that she commonly has this problem with her Easterns. With ornates, it's even more common. It can make raising them difficult, as I end up having to separate them all before too long. They're so strong and active...even a slightly larger hatchling will literally bulldoze a smaller individual. Your large enclosure will help, and placing them in an oudoor enclosure ASAP will also help. There's more stimuli to distract them from one another outdoors, and you can provide them with much more space than can be accomplished indoors.

As far as the different behaviors after moving them...if they can see out of the glass of the aquarium, this can cause stress. You may want to tape visual barriers onto the glass. Also, it sounds like you're using a ton of light. This may not necessarily stress them, but it can make them hide more. Increased ambient temperature or decreased humidity can also cause more digging.

I'm impressed with the description of your setup, and your obvious "well researched" care of the hatchlings. Stick around and share your knowledge. We can use more people like you on the forum.

It does sound like a lot of light, but with the height and fake plants it's really not that well lit. When they were in the tub it was much brighter. Upon moving them the aquarium was darker and they didn't eat as well, so I added a bit more light. They are very active but mostly early in morning and in the evening. When spring comes they will be put outside, the only reason I kept them in last summer was because the 100F+ heat worried me a bit.
The aquarium is covered around the sides. I know very well that if a turtle sees open space the turtle wants to go there and will exhaust itself trying. As for researched, I've lurked around the various kingsnake forums for years and learned a lot on box turtle care from here