Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Posted by: kensopher at Fri Jan 19 07:05:15 2007

It's good that you're offering food every day. At this point, I think you have two problems. Obviously, you have the fungus. Additionally, I think the turtles are suffering from caloric intake problems. You should have seen growth rings beginning at just a few weeks of age, and now they should be robust and more hardy. I've had this problem before when I was just starting out with hatchlings.

Here's how I kind of see it - When the yolk sac is used up, brand new hatchling turtle needs high calorie food items that are easy to catch and digest. That way, they won't have to spend much energy but they get a big reward (calorie-wise). This will help them add muscle and fat, which will in turn give them strength and energy to catch and digest more difficult prey. I offer "high reward/low expense" food items to the youngest hatchlings until they get more robust and chubby. Then, I add in items that they have to chase, tear, and that are more difficult to digest.

I can't find information on nutritional content of sowbugs, but I suspect that they have a low meat to shell ratio. They can also be hard for the turtles to catch and swallow. Most millipedes release toxic chemicals and are not edible for box turtles. If you squish one in your hands, you may smell a very strong, almond-like odor. To a box turtle, this is like a mouthful of wasabi. They usually spit the creature right out. Some have chemicals that irritate or are toxic.

It sounds like you have some difficulty getting your hands on food items. Mail order feeder suppliers are wonderful. If you have access to a credit card, you can get just about anything shipped right to your door. Most companies have even eliminated "minimum order" requirements.

Here are some higher calorie food items that require little energy to catch and/or digest. You're on the right track with waxworms. Also; earthworms chopped into pieces until they just barely move, soaked Reptomin, soaked dog or cat food, mouthbite sized chopped fish and shrimp, TEENY TINY strips of beefheart or beef liver, and finely chopped pink mice. Besides earthworms, most of these items should only play a small role in the normal diet of a box turtle, but right now I think that they need a "calorie burst". Also, most of these items are available at any grocery store. You can buy nightcrawlers at any Walmart (24 for $2.88). You may need to ask about the beefheart.

Your turtles may need to be soaked in Pedialyte for some glucose and electrolytes. This could give them an energy boost for catching prey. It really is a vicious cycle...they need energy in order to eat and digest, but they need to eat and digest in order to have energy.

Handling them for treatment of the fungus is stressful, and they expend energy trying to escape. You really have no choice, but I'd keep handling to a minimum.

I'm sorry for the long email...I hope it helps.

P.s. In my experience, the beefheart is eaten with such voracity...it's scary! If a cow ever stumbled into my turtle pens...I just can't imagine the carnage!

Good luck! Keep us updated. I'm sure that if you posted an update further up the forum, you'd get some more replies.

I use to keep african giant black millipedes which also produce the chemicle, the millipedes that I was offering the hatchlings were newly shed tiny(smaller than half inch) which they ate readily, they were eating regularly up until about the end of Oct., before that they were eating every other day, usually a few small worms and a couple of sow bugs each.

I'll get some canned cat food and some reptomin, I dont think they'd go for something thats not moving though, guess we'll see.
I'd assume a bath in gatorade would be close enough to pedialyte?

"I'd assume a bath in gatorade would be close enough to pedialyte?"

I wish! Gatorade is so much cheaper. The non-flavored Pedialyte would be a better choice. Gatorade has more sugar and the artificial color/flavor.

I share your concern about the non-living prey. Although, being Three-toes, you have a pretty good shot that they'll take it.

I tried reptomin and cat food, none of them went for it, I also picked up some wax worms but I think they may have something wrong with them?
what do you think?

They've all got black spots on them in varying degrees.

I also looked at the super worms but all of the ones they had were dead..

I have pedialyte on hand for chicks, unfortunatly though it's only good for 24 hours after opening and it's a half gallon.. wonder how many soaks I could get out of that in 24 hours..

Rou,

Those worms look like a bad/old batch to me.

Often the black spots are caused by a small but not microscopic larve parasite.

Frequently if you break one open you can see them alive in the waxworm host.

I'd hold off considering the risk.

Consider trying a small piece of thawed frozen pinkie mouse. Try just removing a limb of the frozen pinkie( soak it in cool water till it's completely thawed) and chopping or cutting it fine. Get their nose near it..also try feeding it in a shallow dish.

Ric K.

I would try pinkies, but the lack of interest in non-moving food and the fact that every time I have bought pinkies they were freezer burnt, I dont think it's a good option, if they start showing interest in the canned cat food and reptomin I'll consider them.

I'll also look into the beef liver and/or heart, if they dont eat that atleast the dogs will.

You're in a tough spot with this feeding problem. I wish there was more that I could do to help.

The spots on your waxworms are very common. I breed waxworms, and they will develop these little black spots with any trauma. It's like a scar. Mine are parasite free, but they commonly get these spots from various abrasions in handling. One common way that they get this is from burns received while being harvested. The typical means of harvesting them is with the use of a Tullgren funnel. Basically, it uses a powerful light to coax the waxworms down a funnel until they fall into a collecting bin. The funnels get HOT, and burns are common for the slow movers. When feeding, waxworms create an absolute mess of webbing, droppings, and uneaten food. Everyone uses some sort of "device" to harvest them, and damage to the worm is common. I wouldn't be concerned. I've been feeding my hatchlings scarred waxworms for years with no problems.

Without a doubt, hatchlings are more interested in moving (live) food, but we can't always provide it for them consistently enough (I know from experience).

Have you tried making other food items move? My favorite implement to keep handy when feeding hatchlings is a thin bamboo skewer: it is long enough for me to use without having my hand enter into the hatchling's field of vision.

What I do is I use the skewer to manipulate bits of food to make them wiggle and move by poking whatever it is I'm trying to get the baby to eat. It helps if the hatchling is facing away from me, too. I'l make the tidbit wiggle enoughto get the hatchling to snif at it, and the I'll move the food away from the hatchling and it will follow it. That's when I know the hatchling is interested...
It requires patience but you should give it a try, since your little guys are dealing with some health problems.

Typically what happens is, after a while, the turtle will apparently recognize food items by sight and smell, and the skewer routine is no longer needed.

I would try pinkies, but the lack of interest in non-moving food and the fact that every time I have bought pinkies they were freezer burnt, I dont think it's a good option, if they start showing interest in the canned cat food and reptomin I'll consider them.

Boxies instinctively are attracted to the smell of mice...It is a natural food for them in moderation. Also mice don't have the high fat levels that dog food or cat food has but does have a very lean meat with high caloric value. I never feed my boxies dog or cat food due to all the additives and very, very high fat that make it hard to digest.

I do almost the exact same feeding technique that Steph has described.

Ric K.

I'd assume a bath in gatorade would be close enough to pedialyte?

Regarding bathing in Gatorade... I'd urge a caution here. Many forms or products of Gatorade and Pro Pel Fitness Water contain the artifical sweetener Sorbitol.

Weak, injured or sick boxies would be more prone to add further complications when ingesting sorbitol. Check the labels and prevent future regrets.

Ric K.

Posted by: kensopher at Fri Jan 19 07:05:15 2007

I can't find information on nutritional content of sowbugs, but I suspect that they have a low meat to shell ratio. They can also be hard for the turtles to catch and swallow.

Some info on Sowbugs, an excerpt from "The World Chelonian Trust" The entire article is very long. But essentially states the very higest value for sowbugs as a food source especially for baby turtles. See below. Rou, I think you were on the right track with these buggers!

Ric K.

From:

MEET-A-MEAL: THERE’S A LOT MORE TO SOWBUGS THAN MEETS THE EYE
World Chelonian Trust.

Some people call them wood lice or roly-polies; others use the terms sow bugs or pill bugs. Whatever you call them, they're all isopods: land-dwelling crustaceans that are relatives of lobsters, shrimp and crabs. They breathe through gills, and because of those gills, isopods need extra moisture to live. They are invariably found under rocks, rotting leaves, bricks, in a basement—wherever there is a damp environment. Isopods are completely harmless to people.

Note: Sow bugs are excellent baby turtle food, especially the small, soft-bodied young sowbugs. They’re a soft grey compared to the adults’ black and shiny bodies. Their movement triggers the turtles’ feeding response, are a nutritious whole food, and easy to catch since they don’t move quickly and don’t dig into the soil like small worms and grubs do. Look under your flowerpots for these potential turtle-meals.

Craig Tufts, Manager of National Wildlife Federation’s Backyard Wildlife Habitat Program

I have no doubt that they're wonderful food items for a young box turtle. I feed them to my animals frequently. I suspect that they're very high in calcium.

However, like I stated, there's no nutritional information available. I had previously read that article, and it doesn't specifically give a nutritional analysis. They're difficult to catch and have an extensive exoskeleton. My comment was only related to the "high caloric reward, low energy expense" discussion.

My intent was not entirely clear in my previous post...with a normal and healthy hatchling, isopods are a very good food choice. I've mentioned this many times before. I even feed them to my hathcling aquatics, as the little critters will live and crawl about under water for hours!

"However, like I stated, there's no nutritional information available. I had previously read that article, and it doesn't specifically give a nutritional analysis. They're difficult to catch and have an extensive exoskeleton. My comment was only related to the "high caloric reward, low energy expense" discussion.

My intent was not entirely clear in my previous post...with a normal and healthy hatchling, isopods are a very good food choice. I've mentioned this many times before. I even feed them to my hathcling aquatics, as the little critters will live and crawl about under water for hours!"

As a food source for young boxie hatchlings, I was referring to the soft grey young Pillbugs... As was the article from WCT. Yes I have witnessed them swimming, inevitably great swimmers due to their biological makeup of breathing via gills. I also believe they are high in calcium and have stated that in previous posts.

I find them very easy to catch as opposed to other insects as does the author of the article. I can collect 50-100 at a time just by lifting a damp board which many pillbugs cling to and tap the opposite side over a bucket. Possibly there are different varieties with respect to difficulty in catching.

While I agree with you that pillbugs are not very high in caloric value as most boxie food isn't; I favor pinkie mice( very high calories ) over dog food for boxies. With all the additives and additions of cheap fat and feathers which is indigestible ( often causing blockages) for boxies; I feel this can compromise a hatchling that has growth problems as well as fighting a fungus. Presently there are no standards in the processing of DOG FOOD. It is up to the manufacturer to put whatever in it they deem is good for their profits. Also, there are no FDA rules, or check systems, or laws that states dog food companies must post every ingredient in the food. Many delete the really obnoxious ingredients. While this may seem immoral; it is being done and is perfectly legal.

Many, many common dog foods contain soy hulls, gums, beef lard, feathers, and chicken entrails attached to a plethora of chemicals. Not really a coveted diet for a frail, sick boxie hatchling.

While I appreciate your many valued and informative postings on this forum; I have to disagree concerning your advice advocating dogfood for sick, frail boxies and the use of dogfood for any boxie under all and any conditions.....especially when there are other appropriate hi caloric foods available.

Ric K.

Regarding dog food; you do not know of what you speak. Animal feed and pet food is regulated. There is an entire Division within the Department for whom I work that inspects feed and pet food plants. Your information is dated.

Pinkies are wonderful. They were included in my original message that you chose to take issue with.

At best the regulation you speak of is a cursory one. Any Vet will confirm that of which I speak. But this is not the issue. It doesn't matter.

There is no issue with pinkies as I have posted them as a box turtle food source before you ever were a member on this forum Anyone can check that via the archives.

The real issue which you are trying to avoid regardless of regulation is stating that dog food is a recommended food for frail, sick box turtles.

In many, many posts- knowledgeable posters (some that you know very well on this forum) that were here long before you- state; '"Dog food is not an appropriate food for boxies." That has been the stable advice from most serious experienced box turtle enthusiasts.

And I still agree with the statement." Dog food is an inappropriate food for boxies..."

I'm not here to argue with you.... I'm just concerned about the health of box turtles.

If you're sticking with advising dog food for sick, frail boxies- fine... I disagree.

You disagree. At least we can both agree to a right to disagree. End of thread

This just isn't worth it.

Ric K.

It seems to me that the main objective here is to get the hatchling to eat.

If I were in Rouen's shoes I would try just about anything, even less-than-ideal foods, just to get the little one to eat, and then worry about the finer points of food quality a little later down the road.

Rouen already stated that he didn't have a source for pinkies, so they weren't really on option: dog food is readily available. Yes, it's less than ideal, but isn't it better than nothing at all?

As for the comparative quality of canned dog food, well, all I can say is that box turtles eat such a huge variety of things in the wild (as we all know) and I'm sure that when wild turtles eat that dead, decomposing baby bird that fell from a nest, they aren't going to manage to spit out all of the feathers bits of dirt and twigs and anything else they may get in each mouthful.

Hatchlings fed a steady diet of pinkies can develop problems, too, since pinkies aren't exactly a 'complete' food either.

Cheers

Our personal story here:
If you've been here for awhile you know about how I got Chip.
When he first got home from the hospital in bandages the week before his body cast was placed on him I was feeding him with a syringe but he really wasn't getting enough food. As time passed it got harder & harder to try to feed him because he'd fight so I knew this wasn't going to work.
When the vet took him in to do the body cast she said he was starting to jaundice brought on by lack of nutrition so she placed the feeding tube in him before I picked him up that day.

We used Ensure mixed with Oxbow's Critical Care for herbivores.
The Ensure gunked up the tube & so it had to be done over & shortened. Next we mixed the Critical Care with Pedialyte.
That worked well enough that after a week or two he pulled the feeding tube out by himself. The vet said let's give him a few days to see if he'll eat on his own. I could not get him to eat ANYTHING at all that's turtle appropriate but on the day he was to have the tube placed back in he ate one bite of Iam's moist chicken bites that come in a pouch.

Vet said great he ate something on his own ok no tube, let's make him eat more on his own. So that's what we did. I would try every day to get him to eat something other than dog food but he refused. We thought ok dog food is better than nothing and at least it's chock full of vitamins & minerals. I think everyone knows that dog food isn't the best food for a turtle but I do believe it is better than nothing.
As he healed & got stronger still eating the dog food I gave him a waxworm one day & he ate that. As time passed I tried more variety- he still won't regonize a cricket as food but he'll eat a large variety of worms, grubs, caterpillers and some fruits.
So I weaned him off the dog food & filled his stomach with more turtle appropriate food, today 15 months later he refuses dog food.
Although I don't ever suggest that dog food is good for healthy turtles & I don't feed it to mine now, in Chip's situation it saved his life.
I used to think everything has to be done one way & any other way is wrong but over the years I've learned that just because someone else does things differently than I do, it doesn't mean they're wrong.. it's just every situation is different & so one size does not fit all.
This is just more food for thought..
pun intended

-----
PHRatz

Thanks Ratz and Steph.

I've never previously recommended dog/cat food as a regular part of any box turtle's diet. I never will. I think that people abuse it because it's so easy. I've seen what dog food can do to a turtle (and other herps)...deformities, extreme obesity, gout, and death. When properly used, it can be a viable ADDITION to a box turtle's diet. Dick Bartlett is just one experienced keeper who recommends adding small amounts of high quality puppy chow...as a supplement. I don't think I'd even go that far...like Ratz, just for emergencies.

For Rouen, who has seen the original intent of the post degenerate, I recommended dog food from a list of things that are EXTREMELY EAST TO OBTAIN. It was an alternative to starvation. I stick to that.

Rouen, the forgotten poster, how are the turtles doing? Have they accepted anything?

" I recommended dog food from a list of things that are EXTREMELY EAST TO OBTAIN. It was an alternative to starvation. I stick to that."

I hear ya. As I mentioned, I'd try 'B'or even 'C' list foods in a pinch, too, if came down to that.

The whole thread got derailed there.

Oh Steph, thanks for pointing out my typo...not EAST to obtain...EASY!!! Bwahaha. Sorry about that. I'm terribly ill with the flu, and I'm being forced to think too much. This terrible weather, UGH!

>>I've never previously recommended dog/cat food as a regular part of any box turtle's diet. I never will. I think that people abuse it because it's so easy. I've seen what dog food can do to a turtle (and other herps)...deformities, extreme obesity, gout, and death. When properly used, it can be a viable ADDITION to a box turtle's diet. Dick Bartlett is just one experienced keeper who recommends adding small amounts of high quality puppy chow...as a supplement. I don't think I'd even go that far...like Ratz, just for emergencies.

I read that a lot too in different box turtle books, articles what have ya.. that it's ok to offer dog & cat food as part of the regular diet. I won't go that far either & neither will my vet. In Chip's case she said try dog food, cat food.. anything just get him to eat. Believe it or not, he refused cat food.
I have had so many people tell me "but they love cat food" I was very surprised to find that no they don't.
Once we got him eating though the goal was getting him to eat better food so temporary dog food did serve it's purpose.

Speaking of gout.. I don't trust the commercial foods made for turtles either. 10 years ago my mud turtle got sick, it turned out to be gout and he was cured with allopurinol. Several reptile vets around the country were consulted by phone by my vet, they all concluded that he had to stop eating commercial turtle food & eat a natural diet. They said he can have some commercial but not much.
So that's what he does, he eats all these bugs I breed some live fish & he's been fine for years now.
I can't even get him to eat a pellet if I offer it. I allow the painted to eat some pellet but it's rare. He will not eat Reptomin but he will eat the Jurrasi brand.
-----
PHRatz

Rouen already stated that he didn't have a source for pinkies, so they weren't really on option: dog food is readily available. Yes, it's less than ideal, but isn't it better than nothing at all?

I did email Rouen several days ago and I offered to overnight mail-- frozen pinkies that I have raised ( gut loaded with vitamins and grain) vacuum sealed in plastic.

I stated not to worry about shipping or any costs; as I'm not a dealer and just concerned about his boxie. In other words I would pay the shipping and just send him my highest quality frozen pinkies. No monies expected in return.

I would not have ever mentioned this except the direction this thread has gone has become very biased.

I was ready to ship immediately. So he did have access if he wanted it.

I have not heard from him.

Ric K.

"I would not have ever mentioned this except the direction this thread has gone has become very biased."

Ah, but if you HAD mentioned it earlier, we might have realized that he had more resources at his disposal than originally thought, n'est-ce-pas?

Obviously some of us were responding to information given to us publicly by the original poster (Rouen), and weren't privy to any behind-the-scenes exchanges he may have been having. That doesn't exactly constitute bias, whereas your having additional information does a little.

Very generous of you to offer to send him pinkies, BTW.

That's very generous. Rouen does not seem in the habit of giving out personal information, which is one possible reason. Pinkies would be greatly preferred over dog food, and I'd snatch this opportunity if it were presented to me.

Presently, I am working with 6-7 members of this forum via email regarding boxie problems.

I have been doing so for some time.

It's quicker and avoids conflict... and settles the problem.

Also some have requested that, due to negative feedback on this forum.

When it comes to one person dominating a forum; instead of a healthy forum growing from sharing opinions, procedures, etc... then we close openness and have chaos. No one can grow from one person's opinion as opposed to sharing hundreds of opinions. These views were expressed to me by other forum members stating-
" I don't need this." Even this very day.

Can we share differences and not be shot with darts and arrows?
Do we have to assume the negative initially ?

Did I need to prove I was helping an individual; before I'm an OK guy?

Shouldn't my years here and hundreds of posts have established some credibility? I would think 20 plus years of advanced box turtles techniques with the evidence to prove it...Pictures of my Boxie Collection in perfect health. Master's Degrees in Biology, Chemistry, Microbiology, and Ed Administration as background.

My post were backed with precise statistics, hands on information, and not speculation.

You can refer back to the archives for info on my posts.

I am active in other boxie programs, and have been for 20+ years and will continue with them. I will continue with helping individuals who request my help via the contact system in Kingsnake email and those who have my email.

I choose not to argue; but to educate. Not to constantly prove myself but to collaborate. Thanks to those of you who desired the same...but this continuing saga is not for me.

Mieux de la Chance a' Tous,

Ric K.

This is exhausting...

I meant that isopods are difficult for the turtle to catch, not the human. One or two articles on them mentions their incredible speed with respect to their size.

>>
>>Posted by: kensopher at Fri Jan 19 07:05:15 2007

>>Here are some higher calorie food items that require little energy to catch and/or digest. You're on the right track with waxworms. Also; earthworms chopped into pieces until they just barely move, soaked Reptomin, soaked dog or cat food, mouthbite sized chopped fish and shrimp, TEENY TINY strips of beefheart or beef liver, and finely chopped pink mice.

see...
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1123720,1124119&key=2006
&
Link