Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I uploaded pics under WTorres, a folder named Tulip.
I got her as a hatchling, over a year ago. This is her second winter with me.

Last year, she developed a nasty shell rot. She recovered beautifully. It was sold to me as a hybrid, a cross between an ornate, and an eastern. I am not sure that is correct, though!

Also, how slow do these turtles grow? I also have a red foot tortoise, and she is taking off like a weed! Tulip does not seem to be gaining as much weight, and growing.

Can anyone help, please? Thanks

Wanda

Welcome Wanda!,

"Last year, she developed a nasty shell rot. She recovered beautifully. It was sold to me as a hybrid, a cross between an ornate, and an eastern. I am not sure that is correct, though!"

It's almost impossible to tell. However, I can see how her "look" is consistent with a hybrid between the two species. I'd say take the word of the person from whom you purchased the turtle. The only true way to tell for certain would be genetic testing.

"Also, how slow do these turtles grow? I also have a red foot tortoise, and she is taking off like a weed! Tulip does not seem to be gaining as much weight, and growing."

Tulip...ha, very cute. Yes, they grow much slower than a Redfoot tortoise. If you got her as a hatchling, and tulip is 2 winters old...she looks great! I'd say that she's right about on track. It can typically take from 5 to 10 years for a captive box turtle to reach adult size.

Nice little turtle!

Hey, are you laughing at my girl's name? How dare you... She is very proud to be called Tulip, even if everyone at the vet's giggled too... Hehehe

Thanks for comforting on her growth speed... It seemed too slow for me.

So, can you tell what kind of turtle she is? Is she really a hybrid? Ornate? The vet said it was definitely not an Eastern. Can you identify her?

Thanks,

Wanda

No, I can't tell you. Nobody else can either without doing an in depth genetic study on the animal. People love these questions, and you're going to get all kinds of answers depending on where you ask. You'll get...oh, that's 100% Eastern...yup, definitely a Three-toe X Florida hybrid...oh yeah, that's a Mobile, AL Gulf Coast box turtle. It's pretty funny. It's a lot like asking the different breeds contained within a mixed breed dog. You'll get as many different answers as there are people in the room. Unless you saw the Mommy and the Daddy, and they were purebred...who knows?! There's absolutely NO way to tell just by looking.

I can see that it COULD be an Eastern/Ornate hybrid. They often come out with shells appearing like Three-toes (light, slightly striated, and more round than oval), and they usually have 4 toes on their hind feet instead of the normal 3 of a Three-toe. Your animal is right in line with what I've seen. The ONLY thing that I see different from most Ornate X ______ hybrids is the lack of more heavily "armored" front legs and head (an Ornate trait). However, the picture is a tad fuzzy and hybrids are far from an exact science.

Seriously, I'd take the word of the seller. If he/she was willing to admit to the hybridization (many are embarassed or think that the animal won't fetch as high a price) then I see no reason to doubt. Of course, in the last year or so I've seen hybrids commanding huge prices. However, it's usually with more expensive turtles. Box turtle hybrids have still been cheaper than their "purebred" counterparts.

I'd be interested to see which sex this turtle turns out to be. I have a friend who theorizes that species to species hybrid turtles are always female. Of course, since most seem to be infertile, and the default phenotype is female, it would make sense.

No, not poking fun at all...I love the name Tulip!

I would say either a three toe or a gulf coats(due to shell color) but I agree with Ken, there's no way to know for sure just by looking.
would be interesting to see what it matures into.

I don't really see any Ornata influence there, though I suppose it is possible. However, I do remember at least one dealer in Florida selling box turtle hatchlings as "Three-Toed X Ornate" "Eastern X Ornate" and none of the turtles in the pictures looked like crosses, though they were all hatchlings. In Florida, it is illegal to sell Eastern, three-toed, Florida, and Gulf Coast box turtles, so after seeing the hatchlings in pictures, and in person, I figured they were pure easterns and three-toeds and were being labeled as crosses so the guy selling them wouldn't get in trouble.

The radiating plastral pattern found on ornates has been present on the few hybrids I've seen, at least as a shadow pattern. There doesn't look to be a hint of that on the turtle pictured. Then again, the crosses I've seen were between ornates and three-toeds, which usually have light plastra. I'd be curious to know what the plastra of confirmed eastern/ornate hybrids look like.

The vet who helped her through her shell rot last year said she is definitely not an Eastern. Dr. Giddings is a reptilian specialist.

So I think I can safely cross that off on my end... Lisa's reply is a very rational one, although many previous ones are very thoughtful, and insightful.

Wanda

It does look like a Three-toed more than anything else (to me, but I'm no expert) based on that photo alone, but really, Ken is absolutely correct: unless you were to do some bloodwork and DNA testing, there really isn't anyway to know for sure.

Over the course of the just the last few years alone I have hand- raised well over 100 Eastern box turtle hatchlings, and, while each and every box turtle (Eastern or otherwise) has its own individual and distinctive markings, there is something about the markings on the turtle shown in the photo that make it appear to be something other than an a straight Eastern.

How can it be a hybrid between T. carolina carolina and T. ornata ornata? I think a lab would be required to make a hybrid between two DIFFERENT species.

O.K., what do I know? horses with donkey produce mules. I find this fairly uncommon, though.

My question for you guys: Is it verified that T. ornata can mate with T. carolina and form a hybrid? Or are you just guessing it is possible?

Three toed, if I ever saw one.

Don't know why some people want to start suggesting
hybrid/ornate, just because a turtles got some spots!

Thanks all, for your candid answers, and sharing your experience!

Tulip is a pet, so if she is a sterile hybrid it is OK with me. I am just curious to learn about what the heck she is, because I see pictures of this, and that, and can't place her anywhere. But even if she is worth $0.10 it makes no difference to me either, she is a puppy in a shell in this house.

I never would have bought a hybrid knowing what I know now. Just because I would not want to encourage hybridization of these animals. I had no clue that some try to create Frankensteins, and no knowledge about what some breeders are trying to do with these animals.

But as a pet, she is fulfilling her loving purpose very well, and I am glad she came to a good, permanent home.

Thanks again, I am delighted with your answers.

Wanda

Hybrid, shmybrid....

She's a beautiful turtle and I have yet to see any
proof that actual hybrids can even be produced.

Your turtle looks nearly identical to some of my
three toed juviniles. If I can find a good pic,
I'll post it.

I have kept three toeds and ornates together for five
years and have only witnessed a couple of mating attempts,
neither being successful.

I've never seen a male three toed express any interest
in a female ornate, and I've only seen a male ornate go after a female three toed a couple of times, as I said above.
In my experience anyway, a male ornate is more likely to go after another male ornate, rather than a female from another species.

If anyone has seen good documentation on hybrids in box turtles I would love to see it, but I really think when you see people advertising hybrids it is a scam to generate more interest.

I've looked at claimed hybrids in the kingsnake ads and they always look like easterns or three-toeds to me.

Anyway, enjoy your turtle!

A heck of a great reply! That changes a lot, Thanks.

Maybe she is a three-toedsie after all. The person who sold her to me was not the original breder, but someone who bought them from someone else who told him the torties were hybrids. So here's no way to track down Tulip's mom & dad.

If the evidence of hybridization among boxies is lacking (which I didn't even know) to that extent, it makes sense to me that someone's claims may be made for profit. And maybe my turtle is another victim of some outlandish attempt to hit a profit. That really breaks my heart, to think of what happens to some of these absolutely beautiful, and gorgeous creatures.

I'd love to see pics of your hatchlings sometime, indeed.

Wanda

Wonderful!! I told you that people would love this! Haha, ain't it fun?!

Here's a thought...try to contact a local University. Ask to speak with a Genetics Professor. Tell him/her that you have a wonderful idea for a laboratory exercise! Explain your situation. I'm sure that the information regarding all possible parental species/subspecies is available in some database that the Prof. would have access to. I'm not kidding, this would be fairly easy to map out with some electrophoresis. It would be great for the students to actually SEE what they can do. So many times, the kids do these experiments with no idea of the practical applications.

It may take a few semesters before they can work it in, but Tulip isn't going anywhere.

In addition, there wouldn't be a need for blood draw. A simple swab of the mouth/throat/cloaca should be fine if done correctly.

I'll e-mail some people in herpetology departments in the state. It sounds pretty rational to me that we'd have to prove that hybrids even exist to begin with.

All I have heard in the media about hybrid box turtles are assumptions that they may be interbreeding in the wild, although I have seen no paper proving anything.

I'll post what I get in reply.

Thanks for that real great suggestion!

Wanda

>>I'll e-mail some people in herpetology departments in the state. It sounds pretty rational to me that we'd have to prove that hybrids even exist to begin with.
>>
>>All I have heard in the media about hybrid box turtles are assumptions that they may be interbreeding in the wild, although I have seen no paper proving anything.
>>
>>I'll post what I get in reply.
>>

Wanda I for one would be very interested in what you find out.
I live in the area where T.o.ornata meets up with T.o.luteola & I've often thought there is some interbreeding going on in the wild here. I know some scientists think it's happening here & in other Southwestern areas where the territories meet or crossover.
I have a friend who's the general curator of the Abilene Zoo who told me 2-3 years ago that scientists have been considering doing away with the luteola distinction to call them all ornata because trying to distiguish one from the other is too difficult in many cases. It's just not clear cut for all of them & if they're interbreeding which they could because they aren't that different as say an ornate & 3 toed boxie.

The luteola vs ornate where they seem to be muddled I think is an argument that will go on for years just like the argument on whether or not to continue calling boxies turtle or change that to tortoise.
Anyway please do post when you find out something.. it'll be interesting no matter what.
-----
PHRatz

If anyone has access to these sources, please look them up along with me. I'll try to get more info from the library too. I'll e-mail a librarian as well.

Blaney, R. M. 1968. Hybridization of the box turtles Terrapene carolina and T. ornata in western Louisiana. Proc. Louisiana Acad. Sci. 31:54-57.

Clark, H. W. 1935. On the occurrence of a probable hybrid between the eastern and western box turtles, Terrapene carolina and T. ornata, near Lake Maxinkuckee, Indiana. Copeia 1935:148-150.

Looks like some people have seriously researched hybridization in box turtles, and I just want to get my hands on what they had to say, and other references quoted... So, if it is proof that hybridization can/cannot indeed happen, that's something we all need to be certain about

Wanda

I read the comments from others and looked at the pictures carefully. I think it is a Three-toed. I have seen many Three-toeds and this one looks just like them. Three-toeds often have four toes. I have one with four toes.

Is the breeder an expert? Sometimes a relativley new owner will think the hatchlings from a cluth must be from an ornate and three-toed, if that is what he has in his collection. But female box turtles can store sperm for several years, up to 4, so the eggs may not have been fertilized from the available male.
-----
Tess
Kingsnake.com Forum Host

Yep it's definitely a Three Toed....

Or maybe just a little Eastern.... with traces of Ornate.

Nah it's no hybrid /smybrid! they only exist in the Western Panhandle of Florida and parts of Ohio.... and....

Yep general consensus states it's a Three Toed with four toes...possibly..

Ok I'm accepting bets...got my DNA kit here.....now all I need is blood.

It is a really nice boxie and recovering nicely.

Ric K.