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Why oh why are there so many more Ball Python Morphs than Boa Constrictor Morphs?

Why do you suppose that is? I think I know why and will eventually explain why. I have told a number of folks my little theory, yes another one of my whacko theories, on why we see so many more Ball Python Morphs. It is especially interesting given the more recent interest in breeding Ball Pythons vs. Boa Breeding which has gone on in earnest for much longer. I believe there is a very specific reason. Any ideas?
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I believe it is because a ball male can breed many, many females in one season. A boa male usually only breeds one or two females. So with the boa male you want to make sure he breeds that one female he needs to breed. Where as the ball male you can have him breed all those "different/possible/maybe" females after he has done the job on the ones you really needed him to breed. Just my opionion.

My Guess...and this is only a Guess, is that there are Thousands more Ball Pythons imported every year, and the farmers and exporters are expressing an extreme interest in weird and different Ball Pythons, so the locals who catch them are also looking for weird and different ones.

It just seems like compaired to Boas, most imported and farmed boas havn't reached that "demand" for unique and different. I think in time with enough interest soon the Farms and exporters finally realize there can be big money in the weird and different we will start seeing more. I know they have started, but compaired to the volume and high demand Ball Pythons have, Boas need to catch up, and I am sure its only a matter of time....

Thats My though....
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I feel the same reasons David mentioned and also mentioned them in another forum on this same topic. The imports coming in on Ball Pythons out numbers Boas 100's to 1. Also, some Ball Python males are bred as early as 6 months and females as early as 1.5yrs as well as one solid male could knock up 4-6-8-10 females.

I also agree with TC, except as far as the market goes BP's fell of that edge last year (with some morphs losing as much as 90% of their value) and still haven't hit bottom yet. 2007 prices should be interesting to say the least.

Its pretty simple.....ball pythons are really rabbits in disquise....lol.
Males can breed at 4-6 months, boas- atleast minimum 14-16 but not always with good results....
Female Balls are very predictable sort of speak...easy to palpate so you know when they are "ready"..boas a little different...hard to palpate a 8 foot female,and hit or miss unless you nkow how your females always cycle... lol.
Also female balls can breed at weight, not exactly age....boas need both to be more succesfull.....although there are always exceptions to the rules.....
Plus, even though boas have more babies per litter(or clutch)......One male ball would produce(or can) more babies than one male boa on some occasions, as well as have atleast one female go......plus boas need 4 foot cages, ball pythons....a box...lol.

...atypical coloration someone will inevitably call it a "New Morph".

Personally, I think the Ball Python Market is the most artificially inflated end of the herp market and is perched on the edge of a HUGE dropoff and the worst place you can invest money.

JMHO

Peace, TC

I think it is because of a collection of things. But first I am glad that boas are not like ball pythons. I love boas and I do not want them to become as exploited as balls have. I mean seriously a snake should never cost 70,000 dollars, i mean it is still just a ball python in the end. But I think the one thing that will save boas from becoming the next ball python is their size. An adult female ball python can be squeezed into a sweater box rack with maybe 20 or more females in that rack. An adult female boa is 7 feet or longer weighing over 25 pounds. That is a litte harder to mass produce and care for. So I will continue to pray that boas will never be like ball pythons and that maybe even the ball python market will fall through and they won't be the way they are now. I feel not enough people are appreciating them as beautiful snakes but instead thinking of them as $$$. But that is just my theory and ranting.
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1.1 Motley het butter corns
0.1 Snow corn
0.1 Okeetee corn
1.0 Anery mutt corn
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2.1 Colombian Redtails
1.0 Hypo Colombian redtail
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
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0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa

I would assume that its a numbers game.....20-30,000 baby boas from colombia and Nicaragua, 80,000 baby balls....

Could it be that any little tiny difference in a ball makes it a morph?? where boas are very variable, a normal ball python looks so much like the other normal ball pythons a small difference is call for alarm?? I have both balls and boas, and I can tell you I see huge differences in my "normal" boas and my normal ball look almost identical. There is my guess, what is yours Mr. Ronne?

No...just like with any species...for a morph to exist it has to be proven out...there are plenty of whistle blowers in the ball market, don't get me wrong, but I would dare say that there are just about the same amount in most markets.

Above post was not directed towards you craig...

mike burton

What are we talkin' here, Genes or numbers?

Trends in the reptile market come and go. I'm suprised that the Ball morph market's bottom hasn't dropped out yet.

I personally believe it's a combination of many factors. A majority of the people purchasing these outragious ball morphs are newer to the hobby...say, less than 5-8 yrs. in the hobby (IMHO- although some big time breeders have sold out to follow the ball trend). People just getting into the hobby read alot...everything they read is telling them that other than a cornsnake, a ball python is the best "pet" snake they can own (smaller size...esp. compared to most beginner snake books that say boas grow to 12'...which they do... but usually they are much smaller). Almost every pet store they enter is selling balls (more common these days in pet shops than boas). It's all about balls, balls, balls...

In turn these hobbyists get a little money and buy a ball MORPH (or even a so called "morph"...I put this in quotes because most aren't true morphs... I've picked through shipments of 100's of animals and could have made up names for a dozen new morphs 10 years ago)... then the downward spiral begins- slowley more and more money is invested into balls and it seems they are blind to any other species availiable. Just take a look at some of the webpages of ball breeders...they JUST breed ball pythons only (Oh course Jeff started this thread and he only breeds B.c.i. to the best of my knowledge...although his boa breeding video does show anacondas breeding in the beginning).

Hobbyists these days are a different breed...it used to be mainly children, bikers, etc....nowadays it's families, professionals, "investors",etc... these people have more money and are willing to spend it on so called INVESTMENT animals.

I could be completely off, but that's just my opinion. I believe when the ball market crashes, it's going to crash really hard. If there is one thing I've learned from the hobby is you'll never get rich from breeding animals (with a few exceptions)...Keep the animals that you love...if you love ball pythons, then power to you...keep them and enjoy them.

Graham

Just a few more words...

The other day I was talking with a Ball Python breeder (just breeds balls- nothing else)...he has over $100K in animals. They are an investment for him and he hopes to quit his job in a few years. Discussing the Daytona show, I brought up the topic of the hott show... (I keep rare montane crotalids, eyelash vipers, locality insular boas, and heloderms).. he didn't even know what a Gaboon viper was... $100K invested in reptiles and never heard of a gaboon viper. wow...

I guess the joke will be on me when all these ball breeders are millionares and I'm still working my same job.

Oh well-

Graham

because by next year his $100,000 collection will be worth 50k if hes lucky, and long after hes broke and out of the hobby you will still be doing what you love.
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Thanks Vinnie Caruso
opinons are like a--holes... everybody has one and they all stink

After reading everyone' s thoughts I agree with every point made. I strongly believe it can be a combination of all or certain points that are consider higher on the ladder to why.

1. Numbers of imports - greater for ball pythons more imports.
2. Very small difference in each (name it a new morph) - greater for ball pythons just about a new morph each month - lol.
3. Size and care of (boas are just bigger and need more room and food so - greater for ball python who can be cared for in smaller cages and fed smaller sized meals and pose less risk to people around them.
4. Legality - ball pythons have less trouble and hassle legally to own.
5. Breeding - ball male breed more females as mentioned before and both male and females can br bred younger as long as weight and size have been reached compared to boas who I believe mature slower.

So I think its a combination of all this. Thank god balls don' t have boa size litters

Don' t get me wrong I love ball pythons and there rainbows of colors but I' m a large constrictor fan #1 and always.

Imbreeding? Just a guess, but a genetic mess up is usually covered up by a wildtype allele, maybe balls have been imbred more. Breeding babies to parents and bros to sisters that are het for a new morph would bring it out

.
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Constrictor morphs, and that we just haven't discovered them yet. After all, almost all the boas constrictors ever imported here, for decades were colombian bcis. I like to think that there are lots of morphs left to discover, popping up in collections and found in the wild in all the different subspecies of boa constrictors, like the best example the bcc Leucistic! : )

Isn't it more fun to think there's all out there waiting to be discovered? : )

Caden
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com

That could possibly be true...one thing to remember though...most of the morphs were created by crossing centrals with colombians, not many were started with colombians themselves...

I would say there are lots of morphs we have seen and just havent bred. Ball pythons , if two look alike they get bred.
Boa mentality has leaned more towards, if it is heavily freckled, etc its not good for producing clean snakes....what happens when two highly freckled similar animals are bred? Could they produce something crazy? Thats what Ball pythons have been doing....someone has two high yellows, they breed them. They have granite looking things,they breed them together. Boa breeding is more about selectively breeding certain traits into existing traits.....I dont know if I am making sense, but get it? Lol.
Ex. Someone gets a real clean, pink baby female boa from colombia.....they breed it to hypos. They dont breed the freckled one with the other freckled ones....see waht I am saying?
A good example is the aztec boa....the one line is proven, but I could swear no one wanted farmed babies that looked identical..they all went to pet stores....

by crossing Central Americans with Colombians. Those hypos from Panama were morphs before they ever saw a Colombian. That is the only morph that is a cross of locales too.

Caden

>>That could possibly be true...one thing to remember though...most of the morphs were created by crossing centrals with colombians, not many were started with colombians themselves...
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com

Exactly!
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n/p
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com

I don't know if it has already been said, but I would guess that it has something to do with the high number of farmed babies along with the high number of co-dominant/incomplete dominant morphs.

Co-doms are visibly present in the field and can be selectively caught and exported because of the high price tag they can demand. Plus there are literaly thousands and thousands of babies captive hatched in farms. These babies can easily be picked through for anything different, before mother nature has her way with them.

Know I'll go see what others think.

Hello,

I presume Mr. Ronne is asking why there have been more color and pattern mutations(dominant,recessive)found in wild populations of balls than that of boas. Thats so funny because I myself was asking my muse the very same question just this morning. Her reply was dont bother me liitle boy, go ask Jeff Ronne and before I could there was this thread. Wow the universe works in mysterious ways. Ciao.
Andrew

I don't know what your thoughts are boaphile but here is what I would expect. Since genetic mutations are most commonly exposed through inbreeding, perhaps a ball python's lifestyle in the wild promotes more inbreeding than a live bearing boa. Ball pythons hatch underground and probably live a pretty secretive life. Whereas boas born in the jungle may travel further from where they were born by the time they are breeding size. Perhaps ball pythons become sexually mature in the wild faster than boas, further increasing the chance of inbreeding. Food availability could also be a factor. If a boa in the wild has to travel further to find food I would imagine siblings would be further separated, decreasing the chance of an inbreeding taking place.

.
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin