Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, this is what I have done so far:

I found this link, from the Jacksonville Herpetological Society, http://www.jaxherp.org/jan2003.htm where Dr. Richard Blaney, a professor and head of the science department at Brevard Community College, whose topic was "The subspecies concept."

I e-mailed curators at Yale University, specializing in herpetology, and requested nformation and confirmation/denial of hybridization mong boxies. I sent them Tulip's pictures, to see if they can figure out what she is.

I e-mailed Dr. Harding from Michigan State Univ, a specialist in boxies, and requested the same information. I have not received their reply yet.

But...I found this,
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0045-8511(19351015)3:1935:32.0.CO;2-8
Where you can read part of the Clark, H.W. paper printed in Copeia on a possible hybrid between an eastern and an ornate boxie. Only it cuts right before he goes into the physical description. (I GOT to get me an original copy)

And

Smith, P.W. 1955. Presumed hybridization of two species of box turtles. Nat. Hist. Misc. (146):1-3.

So, given the fact that the cases *may have* been reported in peer reviewed, scientific journals, I am more inclined to believe there is evidence of hybridization among box turtle species, but need to get my hands on the articles to learn to what extent it has been described in the herpetologist community.
I am still trying to get a hold of a way to get my little Tulip DNA tested...

Wanda

Hi Wanda:

Yes, hybrids between the Eastern and Ornate box turtles are known. But they are extemely rare, and actual hybridization in the wild would be really rare. I think that the dealers sometimes do claim an animal is a hybrid just to increase the price!

I cannot confirm that the turtle in your photos is a hybrid. Both its carapace and plastral coloration, and its skin color, is within the range of variation seen in the Eastern Box Turtle. The only way to know for sure would be by checking its DNA--- an expensive proposition and probably not worth the trouble.

You have done a good job with the turtle. The shell looks like it is healing nicely. Congratulations!

Jim

BTW, this is his webpage: http://critterguy.museum.msu.edu/

Wow, Wanda!

You've just corresponded with one of the heaviest hitter in the "turtle world". Nice job! You've been busy.

I was going to mention Dr. Harding. Biowarble posted a question about full species hybrids. One interesting hybrid that was accidentally produced by Dr. Harding's researchers was a NA Wood turtle and Blandings turtle hybrid. It's called a "Harding Hybrid". Not only is this a full species hybrid...it's also a hybrid between animals in two different genera!! (Glyptemys insculpta and Emydoidea((Emys)) blandingi)

Also, I've personally seen hybrids of the Western Pond turtle with Blandings turtle (Actinemys marmorata and Emydoidea blandingi), NA Wood turtle with Western Pond turtle (Glyptemys insculpta and Actinemys marmorata), and Bog turtle with Spotted turtle (Glyptemys muhlenbergi and Clemmys guttata). I've either seen the actual animals or have seen pictures on the net. Many of them have been offered for sale on the various classifieds. These types command very high prices! This will undoubtedly lead to more hybrids in the future. Bogs/Spotteds are affectionately referred to as "Spogs". Cute, huh?

I've seen, heard of, or read about many more types of hybrids. Many of the Asian species are believed to hybridize in the wild.

I think that the reason it is so difficult to find information regarding hybrids is because of the value placed on the information by researchers. If they don't feel that it is valuable, they won't pursue/publish the information. The only scientific value that typically jumps out at a researcher is the better understanding of the relationships between species. Example - if a Wood turtle and a Blandings turtle can hybridize, maybe they're more similar than we thought? Taxonomists love this kind of thing...haha, or hate it because of the frustration it can cause.

Also, because of habitat requirements and geographical range, natural hybrids are considered rare. Many researchers will think, "If it didn't happen naturally, who cares?".

Most hybrids are produced artificially. Hybridization is "en vogue", and unfortunately I think it'll become more and more common.

Oh, and one more possible reason that information on hybridization is rare. People have such a difficult time identifying pure species/subspecies. A google search of "box turtle" images will show you this. Almost 1/4th of the animals are mislabeled. If someone produces a hybrid...many times they simply don't know it.

I'm impressed that you found all of that information! Be careful, people will start giving you assignments.

Hey you started it, laughing at my little Tulip's name!

I am glad you like intellectual answers, and obviously have an impressive background yourself! I was moved to find out, based on the comment that there was no proof of hybridization. Give that gal the credit she deserves, we should not be taking words without proof, either.

So now we know that hybridization among boxies has been documented in peer-reviewed journals since the 1930s.

Tulip's vet was not enthused when I suggested she was a hybrid. I understand the reaction you talk about. I would not have purchased an experiment for profit. But she is a pet, and a companion animal. She stays.

It breaks my hear to think that Tulip was one of six hybrids. She was ill, and broke out into that shell rot infection months later. Gawd knows how many did not survive because the new owner didn't care, or the breeder preferred "other projects".

You had a good eye pointing out what you noticed in the pics.
Hey, I'm game for the next challenge! It was fun, and you're my hero..

Wanda

I had heard the hybrids (or mutts) weren't necessarily desirable and could be difficult to sell because the markings tend to be somewhat muted.

So an Eastern crossed with a Three Toed (or any cross of your choice) might not be very colorful.

I have seen a few Eastern/Three Toed crosses and I tend to agree, based on personal observation (which of course is very limited), so I certainly wouldn't consider it a selling point.

You'll have to post more photos of your turtle as it grows, so we can see how it changes as it grows.

I will post more pics of her, definitely. Recall that her cross is eastern x ornate, not 3 toed.

And her monetary value is insignificant to me, as nobody could ever pay me enough dough for Tulip.

Wanda

Thanks! I realize that she's a presumed Ornate cross...I was just using Eastern x Three Toed as a general example. Tulip's colors are a little less bold than many 'pure' Easterns I've seen, but that doesn't really mean much, since they are so variable.

Look forward to seeing pix!

Dang I couldn't get the second link to come up for me. I got error but
in the first link where Dummy is shown.. wow I had no idea that Gulf coast boxies could grow to that large size.
Interesting stuff here...
-----
PHRatz

Hybrids can be pretty. I wouldn't know about easterns x three toeds (I've seen a couple "possibles" near the middle Mississippi River, but they just as easily could've been drab easterns. Three toeds x gulf coasts and three toeds x ornates can be extremely pretty (but I've only encountered two examples of the latter, both wild).

The near-perfect mix of characters in those natural intergrades/hybrids is something else. I have taken some pictures in the past, if you'd like I can search old files to see if I can dig some out and upload.

People are quick to down on hybrids and I just don't get it. Box turtle pet owners are not conservation facilities. I don't understand the problem some of you have with experimentation when we're talking captive animals.

You take my remarks out of context. Please don't interpret my limited personal observations (I did qualify them as such)as being universal judgements on the subject of hybridization.

Thank you.

" don't understand the problem some of you have with experimentation when we're talking captive animals"

Maybe if more cuttlefish were kept as captive animals, you'd be OK with feeding cuttlebone...

Wanda

Interesting thread as I have a male EBT living with a female OBT! (Or at least they WERE living together. Not sure if this arrangement will continue as he seems to be stressing her too much.)

And, BTW, I think "Tulip" is a perfectly good turtle name! lol!
-----
0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
1.0.0 Dutch(rabbit)
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Well, looks like you may be one to see the rare cross. And if the reports are right, the name may have been picked appropriately, as she may be a sterile girl.

Promise me you'll post pics...

Wanda

Here is what an experienced box turtle breeder e-mailed me:

"Mutts that are a mix between three-toed and easterns can breed. In a strange twist (or perhaps a human lack of understanding about taxonomy) most species that breed with other species produce infertile offspring. In the case of box turtles, there is an interesting change. The main "species" as we've labeled them are eastern and western. Three toed, florida, eastern, and gulf coast boxies all fall in the eastern group as subspecies, so you'd expect that subspecies could breed normally and produce fertile offspring, which they all can. Westerns, on the other hand, should not produce fertile offspring and have difficulty producing any offspring with easterns (westerns include ornate and dessert boxies and some other subspecies in mexico I believe called the yucatan which is rare in captivity and is endangered). Three toed box turtles can breed normally with ornate box turtles, however, but it seems that other eastern subspecies cannot. So we have a sort of bridge between the two main species groups."