Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been inquiring around by email, private messages, and talking to people at herp shows about some of the less common dwarf species. I have come to the conclusion that many of them are not present in the US, or they are disappearing. Take V. caudolineatus for example, thru conversations I have come up with four females, no males in the states. Its only a matter of time before there are no more left in the US. I have also found there are several people that work with this particular species and have them available in other countries, and for that matter, many others species that you never see much about here. I understand that its not legal to export these wild caught species from Australia, nor would I promote it if it were, but what is the possibility of importing captive bred specimens from Europe, Australia, or where ever?

I am just joe average hobbyist with an interest in these smaller dwarfs, not a retailer or commercial importer, nor do I aspire to be one. I get frustrated with the dead ends I run into when trying to acquire any of these, especially when I see them available in other countries. This is not to say that they are all that way, I have found a few people working with storri and pilbarensis, a couple with tristis orientalis, one with gilleni, and a gilleni/caudolineatus cross, but have yet to acquire any. That leaves many others that don't seem to be in the US, or maybe I just have not looked long and hard enough yet.

I don't know the legal issues? Nor the actual requirements to ship live animals safely half way around the globe? Nor if this is even possible?

I read posts in other forums of people in Europe sending stuff to and from other countries, but have yet to read anything about bringing species to the US on a hobbyist level. If my thinking is flawed let me know, if its possible I would like to know that also. Keith

Plain and simple, our government likes screwing with us. Five species of Varanids are listed as appendix 1, four are because of the hide industry. Some of these species have the largest ranges of all varanids. They are no means endangered.

These varanids are in the genus varanidae.

Of course the monitors you are talking about are not those monitors(subgenus odatria) and actually should not be listed. But unfortunately, all varanus is blanket listed as appendix 2. Which means you need permits to move from country to country. By all means, small monitors have no business being varanus. Come on, does a V.(???)caudolineatus, appear the same genus as a Komodo??????? hahahahahahahahahaha

Appendix 2, is suppose to allow keeping track of numbers. What is going where. It clearly states in the CITIES manual, they are not suppose to be limited or controlled. Just kept track of(issuing permits allows a trail). It also clearly states its concern is with wild animals. Any appendix 2 animal bred out of country of origin, is listed as a species of no concern.(our guys don't like reading this part) They ignore that part. Actually they added a little, they said, has to be bred in a CITIES breeding facility, and there are none(private)(they control who gets to be one)

Then comes the U.S government. They in their ultimate wisdom, think they are the controllers of the world(they told me this).

To be a CITIES signee country you have to abide by their standards set forth in the manual. But it does not limit countries from exceeding their guidelines. So our government told me. They are going to teach the world how to do this. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha etc. They make up their own rules above and beyond CITIES. Yet, not for our own animals. Only other countries animals.

This was explained to me, face to face, by USFWS personal. Why I laugh is, the animals of concern are from australia, and that country provides the best protection in the world, period. Yet our country thinks they need help, all the while not doing their own job. They do not provide anything more then casual protection for our own native species(reptiles). Native Reptiles are ignored by USFWS.

They USFW seem to really care about limiting captive hatched monitors of australian desent. Whos grandparents had to have been smuggled out of Oz.(however long ago) Yet do not care a hoot about our own native wildlife that is being continiously smuggled out of our own country. By the same people. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

So yes, I understand your frustration. The good thing is, USFW has a high turnover rate and often forget what their doing. Good thing or we would be screwed. Cheers

You left something out.

There already are some dwarf species being bred in this country.

All too often a person will get carried away with a rarity bug over something because it's rare, we should have it cause it's rare, when, if it were abundant, it would just be another small, brown lizard.

Maybe we should have the right to have any available small monitor species, maybe not, but beauracracy will always obscure that as you discuss.

Whatever happened to making do with? We've got some of the prettiest dwarf species in this country. Does a wee bit of difference in behavior, or appearance, or anything, warrant worrying over the absence of a few other species?

casichelydia

You are missing the point of my post. I never used the word 'rare' once, I may have said less common, but that is a fact, not a criteria in the monitor I like. The point is size, small, not large. I have respect for, but no interest in large monitors. I prefer to make room for several groups of dwarfs, than provide a 16x8x8 enclosure for a pair of niles or waters or what ever. You are correct, there are dwarfs here, but good luck finding anything not an acanthurus with any regularity or at all. Believe me, I am always trying. I don't mean to imply that is any thing wrong with acanthurus, I keep them also. Thanks Keith

I took your point. It strikes me as unnecessary when you say you worry about species like V. caudolineatus. What about the dwarfs besides acanthurus that are still in this country in some, albeit small, numbers?

My angle here is to encourage anyone to work with what he/she CAN have rather than pine over what he/she can't easily get. I do understand your frustration, but why not work with one of the non-acanthurus species that's available in the US? If caudolineatus was common and acanthurus was not, you'd feel the opposite about each species, but you still couldn't do anything to change the unfortunate regulations for US importation. You can amass a small stamp collection of species within the red tape confines of the US.

It's frustrating when you like too many darned things, I know. That's why I traded the collection life for a life of do one thing (at a time, at least) and (try to) do it well, some time ago.

QUOTE
"but why not work with one of the non-acanthurus species that's available in the US?.... You can amass a small stamp collection of species within the red tape confines of the US."

No you can't!

Please point me to an example of your statement. I would love to see it. There are no SMALLER than acanthurus monitors readily "available" in the US. Available is not even a term I would use to describe them. If there was I would have(and several others I am in contect with) already bought them. If you are refering to niles, savs, or someother wild caught $30 large monitor, sure they are readily available. I have respect for their kind, but no desire to house or care for them.

Yes there is a scattering of a few small dwarfs, but at times I think may have a better shot at hitting the lottery.
Thanks Keith

Readily available, and they are noticeably smaller than ackies.

So what is the issue with someone searching the states to see if they can find a breeding pair to help increase numbers so that hobbist such as myself can have access to pygmy monitors? Is it wrong for someone to want to help contribute to the captive reproduction of a species that is not commonly available anymore? is it bad that people rather new to the hobby to have an interest in breeding them and repopulating the captive numbers?

For me, it is pygmy monitors or none. I have no interest in the larger species. 2' and below....that is what I enjoy keeping. Am I wrong for that? I currently keep Red Ackies and Storr's.....and I am in a constant search for other species. Sure Timor monitors and Yellow Ackies are out there too and they will be a part of my collection in no time.....so what about the others dwarfs?

Storri are somewhat available. Currently, every person that I know of that breeds Storri has a 'wait list' of people wanting offspring.....one with almost ten people on the list! ...sure they are at sometimes available....and if you are lucky you will find them. My storri are not even a year old and I have already had 5 people ask me to "Let them know" when I get eggs....

Some other species that were once available in the US are hard to find. Caudos being one species. I know of 2 people that currently have caudos....no breeding pairs. Where did all the caudos go?

I know of a few people in North America that deal with v. kingorum. Several dealing only with the leucistic lineage, so the the offspring are very pricy. And I just want normal animals....but I have yet to find any normals available. Where are all the kingorum?

The only person I know of with breeding Gillens is Frank Retes, but for some reason, I have a hard time getting in touch with him to see what the situation is with those animals. I know someone must of purchased Gillens from Frank and is breeding them....who are they and where are they at?

I have given up on the internet and breeders that show their faces online......I have begun searching reptile shows, local newspaper classifieds, 'word of mouth' private keepers...you name it I am there....

....I really think it is sad that some of the 'older' keepers did not keep the population of some of the captive dwarfs in the US in higher numbers so that younger people with an interest in the animals would have a chance to continue keeping them....these animals would not be 'rare' in this country in the first place if only someone had recognized that they were declining in numbers and continued to breed some for 'the good of the hobby'....maybe that was asking too much.

That's funny.

In x number of years, people could be saying the same about you for not breeding niles or savs or the multitude of Indonesian species, to keep them around for the betterment of the hobby and future hobbyists who will complain about not having them. So there wasn't enough concerted interest to keep dwarfs around back when... how is that different than your sentiment against "large" (ackies can pass two feet) species today?

Consider working with what you have ready access to now instead of dwelling on what you can't easily get.

Niles and savs are poor examples. Unless current conditions rapidly change over the next ten years, they will still be imported by the boatload.

AGAIN.....I do not have the capability to keep larger monitor lizards.....it is out of the question. No lacies for me. If I tried to keep larger monitors they would be forced to live in exteamly small enclosures and 'live' horrible lives. It would be like someone trying to save a forest from fire by burning the forests surronding it.....not logical.

But what about dwarfs? They really don't take up a bunch of space do they. Wouldn't be that hard to keep those would it?

There are obviously low numbers of some species of dwarfs in this country......so why not search for the 'rare' animals to start a breeding project?

It sounds to me that you are giving a very 'you should just give up' kind of attitude.....but that does not matter, I will continue to search for these animals.

Just tell that fella to drive and Hugo and be done with it. hahahahahahahaha. As his arguements have no more merit that that. Cheers

Of the dwarfs which are the most often encountered in that area?(Hugo) Also any advice on the best means to observe(in a natural state) would be great. The "expert" natural history from all/most the monitor books came up short or I was living a paradigm of where I "thought" they should be. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Lastly, Is anyone working with Benegal monitors? Thank you, Zak.

I should better ask the question in general terms. It would be interesting and likely helpful to keepers to know more about the natural history and field observations from those who have seen dwarf monitors in the wild. It appears many of the books are wrong (seems to be alot of controversey) and if that is true one is pretty well handicapped with captives and going to the field to try an gain a "snap-shot" into their world. Without getting into trouble I would like to ask anyone, especially FR, if they could give any personal field accounts on some of the above discussed dwarf monitors. If this is the wrong forum can some one direct me to a site more geared to natural history for this topic? Thank you, Zak.

If I check the classifieds, and check the nearest 2 reptile shows, a little persistance and patience, and you can find them. Its a amzing what you can find in a few big reptile shows if you know what your looking for. Many species that supposedly arent available, or that nobody supposedly breeds (Im referring to rarer Aussies species).
Even when one person bred Storrs in years no one was interested in buying them when they did go up for sale. I could have had 2 female2 for my old male for $100-$125 each.
Sometimes the prices just go up, but its like anything else, if you want to play, you gotta pay.
Where did anyone say theres anything wrong with attempting to breed a harder to find species, I didnt see that until you mentioned it.

Not everyone in this country has easy access to reptile shows. In a 300 mile radius from where I live in South Louisiana, there are about 3 reptile shows a year.

I get the feeling that you must live in the Southwest US?? I have heard from several people that there is an abundance of monitor keepers out that way.......so I might have to make a few long trips to see what ya'll got.

Money is not an issue....availability is. I have the money to spend, but lack the time to travel the country searching for animals. If you can find hatchling caudos available somewhere, let me know....I will give you a nice finder's fee

I havent bothered going to any shows in a long time now. I might go to one soon to get some cheap mice though. A year or so ago it wasnt hard to find too many monitors, everyone was selling, trading, or looking, no one was buying.

Personally I do not understand your post. We are talking about captive produced monitors, already in captivity. Which CITIES clearly does not want to regulate. Try reading the regulations.

CITIES does not require their approval for the deregulation of appendix 2 animals produced out of country of origin. No where in the regs does it state they do. Our government simply made that up all on their own. For no reason pretaining to conservation in any form. They did it because they can. PERIOD. You know, what the U.S. government is famous for, the big bully syndrome.

Also if you think there is only slight color differences then you do not have any idea what your talking about. A common practice of extreme ignorance is lumping things together. You know, they all look alike. In this, you may want to rethink what you said, before you show your true colors.

Next its about human freedom. Something our country says we have. Yet all the European countries and Canada, go by the intend of CITIES. They have no problem shipping with permits. Its only our government that makes their own rules. Mind you, on non-native animals. ALso mind you, their first service is with NATIVE animals, which they could give a crap about. Oh unless they can do a public bust. You know, for albino blackrats or white sided hognose or other non naturally important color phases. Of course, its Fine to plow up millions of acres for strip malls and auto malls.

So yes, I am very frustrated and I am allowed to RANT. thanks

Yeah monitors, even those from the same litter, can be very different. Same-species differences are neat as separate-species differences. So why worry about different species? My point is for average hobbyists to focus on what's here now. Why should anyone of that status worry over having access to "only" a few dwarf monitor species as opposed to 10? Even when they DO have access, the same result comes about... When was the last time those Auffenbergi were available? I remember when I read Reptiles magazine quite a few years ago, back when you advertised in it. What happened to those kingorum? Storri? Did enough others breed them, or were they worried about what else should be allowed in from Europe?

Do you have any point or are you simply babbling? Cheers

Hahahaha

Okay, unless those old ads weren't true, some of those little species were here, and being bred. If they were being bred here, I wouldn't figure anyone would need more from Europe. Once they were available here, did keepers keep interest in them? You know better than I do, since you were supplying the keepers, yes? What happened to those monitors?

What's wrong with trying to be one of the first to work with a species? It must be thrilling to be the first to breed an animal that has never been bred in the U.S. I used to breed Cyclura, Frillies, Bearded Dragons, Leopard Geckos, etc., as a hobby and I truly enjoyed it.

However, I'm looking for a new challenge and I currently have Pilbara, Kingorum, and Lacies. I won't be the first to work with these animals but I'll be one of a small group. I'm really looking forward to the challenge of trying to produce a species that is somewhat rare in this country. Nothing wrong with that I hope?

I sure don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I don't think the frustration of average joe keepers wanting to get stuff from abroad is necessary, when there are species here that can satisfy the rarity crave AND benefit from more people working with them, i.e., those you mention.

If you keep either of the two rock monitors we have (legally) in this country, is it really worth agonizing over not keeping any of those glebopalma(sp) ?

What I was trying to convey to those guys above is, although I share their frustration (oh, in younger days when I dreamed of getting ahold of those Fiji iguanas - they do breed them, here AND in Europe), I don't think it's worth dwelling on, at least not for basic hobbyists. I hate red tape, but there's little getting around it.

QUOTE,

"I don't think the frustration of average joe keepers wanting to get stuff from abroad is necessary, when there are species here that can satisfy the rarity crave AND benefit from more people working with them, i.e., those you mention....I don't think it's worth dwelling on, at least not for basic hobbyists."

Taken out of context. I did say "I am just joe average hobbyist with an interest in these smaller dwarfs, not a retailer or commercial importer, nor do I aspire to be one." Yes a hobbyist like 99% of the people here, not looking to start a business or some manufacturing plant for cheap disposable pets. This is NOT are rare thing, this is a SIZE thing. 'Joe average' was not a description of willingness or means to provide proper care for animals. I am not talking about wanting one animal to impress my friends with, while it dies of stress, dehydration, or starvation, like the thousands of impulse reptile purchases at chain stores. Those have no hope to breed and keep the line going. I am talking about availability to those that wish to or attempt to breed, not consume.

QUOTE,

"If you keep either of the two rock monitors we have (legally) in this country, is it really worth agonizing over not keeping any of those glebopalma(sp) ?"

First glebopalma is not part of my discussion, too big. If I am not mistaken, the (leucistic)kingorum you are refering to that JME keeps, are more recent imports themselves, just as all species here once were. You could maybe say pilbarensis are semi-available, if you are in the right place, at the right time, with cash, and act fast.

Thanks Keith

I have nothing against you. Other then I have no understanding of your attitude.

You seem to want to push your rationalizations on us. May I offer you my personal opinion on that. No thanks. Its fine for you, but you are NOT ME OR OTHERS. You have no right to make decisions as to what I should have or want or simply what excites me(all within the law) Period.

Its also my opinion, you have a very defeatist attitude and If I had your attitude, I would have never enjoyed the successes I have had. I enjoy them and I was successful for one reason. I do not give up easily, hmmmmmmmmmmm or at all.

And old friend and teacher, indeed taught me a lesson. He had these rare snakes(common now) and he failed with them(they died) I asked how he was doing on the phone, he said great. I then went for a visit. I saw is rare snakes had died. I thought for a while and asked. Hey (jerk) you said your doing good, but they are dead. He looked at me like I was the jerk(I can do that). He then said, yea, but I am not dead yet. I hope thats not too deep for you.

Please do not make decisions for me or Keith. If you don't want them, great, stay out of the conversation, because your attitude has nothing to offer, its simply defeatist. Cheers

I share my opinion, just like you. You don't have to jump to the conclusion that I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, to DO anything other than consider that. Sharing opinion isn't like sharing food, no one's obligated to use it after taking it.

Heck, you share your opinion. There're people who'd want you on a list somewhere for discrediting the feds over pet lizard red tape. I didn't take it you were saying everyone has to feel your way, but I'd say THAT view's a bit defeatist.

I don't think my view on species availability is a defeatist view, just a modest one. I don't give up easily, either, but I'm also not hard to satisfy.

I got a kick from that snake bit. Thanks for taking the time to type on dwarf monitors of Christmas past.

You seem to do a lot of inaccurate figuring without real knowledge. No offense.

Yes they were bred here, then they migrated elsewhere. Ones disappeared from here and need to migrate back. You see animals often migrate.

In the early days of Odatriad breeding, the Europeans acquired several types. Then bred them. Then shipped them here, Then lost them and reacquired them from here. Such is life. That is what is suppose to happen.

For instance, when I bred Kings, the monitor people in the states, mainly wanted large(Phalic) monitors. Now with actual experience, there is a following for smaller monitors. This is mainly because small monitors are exactly like large ones, except we can actually give them enough space to enjoy them. Compare a Kings in a 4 to 6 foot trough(huge amount of space) To a mid sized monitor in a 6 to 8 foot cage, tiny by comparison.

In those days, I could not give the dang things away. In fact, I often did give them as gifts to lubricate large deals for ackies and Kimberlys. Heck one big breeder would not take them for FREE. But that was then.

The same went for V.gilleni, V.caudolineatus.

The truth is, these true dwarfs(1 foot or less as adults) are far more fun and far more entertaining and cost a million times less to keep, YET do all the things larger monitors do and a million times more(because they have space to do it.)

Your attitude is very naive and ignorant of reality. The reality, no one is required to breed the same animal forever. I bred them for many years and moved on to other animals I love. Then I moved back. SIR, we are free to do that.

As you should know. Monitor breeding by the normal keeper is unheard of. Also as you may have thought, I have little respect for those who think they know monitors(except if they actually do and those are few) The wifestails and poor information given by varanid authorities, is appaulling and has successfully kept those who listen to that stuff, in the dark ages.

To put it in prespective, I have more in common with bird breeders then I do with varanid experts. I can have a lovely time with bird breeders talking about nesting and bonding and multi-clutching and all other things monitors do. But if I talk about this stuff to varanid authors and authorities and biologists, they look at me like I am crazy. Yes, we have nothing in common. Yet I have no problem breeding any kind of monitor.

So I take from your post, we should not be allowed to reacquire them because we had them and lost them. How funny, as someone who worked in zoos, they are constantly reacquiring their charges. In fact, they reacquire more then they produce.

So I am wondering, should zoos not do that either????? Other then whatever weirdness you have, the point is clear. These animals are not threatened or endangered. They are captive bred out of country of origin and we should be allowed to trade/buy/sell/ship according to the regulations. PERIOD. You do understand, if I sold the hides, I would not have a problem shipping to other countries. Cheers

"What happened to making do?" I am thankful the "old timers" who were able to get stuff here did not have such a myopic view. Otherwise we would all be "making do" with ratsnakes and racers...which would be alright if I did not know better what is out there.Zak.

I've got a young pair of gilleni. Hopefully they will breed this year. They are definitely cool little monitors.

Sold, Sign me up!! HAHA. Best of luck to you and you gilleni. Thanks Keith

I know that I'm coming into this kinda late, but I think that casichelydia is missing the point that theyre interests do not have to be shared by everyone in the world and that other people may like things that they know nothing about. I really think you should stop belittling everyone else's interests and acknowledge the fact that you are not the be-all end-all when it comes to monitor lizards. If someone else would like to keep the monitors species that you don't consider important then they may do so. And yes I do believe that you completely missed the point because if you hadn't then you wouldn't be jumping all over this post trying to tell people that their interests are stupid. Anyhow, sorry for the long post, I just don't think that people should try to run the interests of others into the ground for no reason.

It pains me to see this spoiled, "I WANT" mentality when it comes to reptile keeping. As a friend of mine so eloquently put it, reptile keepers especially here within the US tend to treat wildlife books, illustrations, and field guides as "catalogs" in which they can shop for whatever animals they want...

"Ooh, I want one of those, and one of those, and two of these, and...."

We as American hobbyists have access to substantially more species of reptiles (including monitors) than any other nation on the planet. The European union is barred from keeping (importing) many of the common, imported "Junk" monitor species which many of us disregard or take for granted..

Right there is the cause for much of the animosity which exists between European herpetoculturists and American herpetoculturists, as regardless of how fortunate we are to have access to the species which we do, we still want more, and we still want what we cannot have...

Attitudes like yours is what causes issues amoung AMERICAN keepers. So the Europeans can not have animals that the Americans have access to...that creates jealousy and envy which develops into animosity, right? Any other country would be the SAME as America if given the chance so try to consider that when you preach with your high and mighty "Americans are not thankful for what they have" negative assessment of OUR hobby.

Also, you instantly assume most of us Americans are one way. The sterotypical assignment of character to every individual that wants to own something that is not readily available is garbage. What happens to the people that really do not fit that sterotype?.... you mock them all with your 'umpa lumpa' nonscense? It is really sad when an experieced keeper that think they 'know it all' doesn't try to understand the issues at hand and discuss the way things can be improved.

An American keeper wanted to know why some animals that were once commonly available in this country are no longer that easy to find and what can they do to find them. So that person is berated for not being interested in what is abundant and told to forget out the other animal? Give me a break. I wonder if you would you have acted differently if it was a European asking the same question.

I guess you never had a point in your years of herping that you wanted to start a new project and someone told you not worry about other animals and concentrate on what is already here? If that was the case for everyone, we would all still be keeping corn snakes and fence lizards and none of these monitors would have ever entered one the American herp community and the Europeans would really be lacking in the reptile hobby.

If everyone thought like this no one would keep reptiles because no one would care to go out of their own backyards to find anything new. So before you go bashing an interest in a species that might not be so common think that if these interests did not exist you would not be keeping anything. So seriously how can you try and say that its a we want what we can't have situation when your hobby is based on the sentiment that knowledge should be expand and people with their own interests should be allowed to pursue them. If you really think this, sell all the species you have that are not found in your area, and only look at what you can find outside because clearly you don't agree with what this hobby is based on.