Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was informed today that there is a Bill currently going thru the Senate that will make any constrictor type snake, that could and I would like to underline the word COULD reach 6' illegal to keep, breed or sell within Indiana. That covers about anything from Ball Pythons to Rat snakes to add species here.
Also it would make keeping or breeding most monitors, Iguanas, crocodilans, along with most exotic mammals illegal.
Here is the Link:

www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2007&session=1&request=getBill&docno=0482&doctype=SB

Some of the text:

Senate Bill 0482
2007 Regular Session

Latest Information

DIGEST OF INTRODUCED BILL

Possession of exotic animals. Classifies certain animals as "prohibited animals". Provides that a person must have a permit from the department of natural resources to possess a prohibited animal. Requires that a person who possesses a prohibited animal meet certain conditions. Prohibits a person from acquiring or breeding a prohibited animal after July 1, 2007. Establishes a Class A misdemeanor for violations.

There is a also the same bill working it's way thru the House, House Bill 1472.

I talked to someone who works for the State Department of Natural Resources. She stated, it was not the DNR that sponored this bill, but the United States Humane Society. She said they actually wrote it and gave it to Senator Sipes.
Sipes in turn Sponored the Bill in the Senate.

If this passes, it will for the most part, completely shut down the reptile hobby in the State of Indiana. (I guess leopard geckos and Bearded Dragons would be safe... for awhile). They first started attacking the hobby back in 1998. That go around, they told us they only wanted to protect native species. What they did was shut down the complete keeping and breeding of anything that could be native to the state. They provided a way to get a permit to breed a few snake species, but the red tape and BS one had to go thru to do it, made it almost impossible. To this day, I think only one person has such a permit. Then they attached on to that law, the prohibition of venomous, and then Crocodilians over 5 ft. And then, it was turtles and tortoises. They in their words, closed any loop holes the Federal law had. It was illegal to breed box turtles, then they just made it illegal to keep box turtles. One couldn't breed any, repeat any kind of turtle or Tortoise and sell their offspring in the state. With one loop hole. Keep them until they reached legal size of 4". You couldn't even legally take them out of state to sell, since you would be breaking the Lacey Act in doing so.
Where will it stop? Again, this is not a DNR backed law per se. But if it passes, it will fall upon them to enforce it.
And believe me when I say, these states fall like dominos. Once one has such a restrictive law, soon others follow.
If you want to be kept abreast or would like to help defeat this upcoming Bill, please contact Brian Hahn at americanrodent@sbcglobal.net or Ron Billingsley at thebigsquease@aol.com.
At this time, we do not know when they will have meetings to talk about these bills, but as you can read, July 1st is when they want to inact them!
-----
Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

Personally I think its BS that herpers in different states have to keep going through this. On a sad side note though look at Florida how many burms are being let loose in the wild of the everglades. That is fuel for the politcal fire to destroy our collections and passion of/for reptiles. I mean we let EVERY1 in this country and political people arent on a crusade to stop that, but keep a snake that grows to more than 6' lets do everything to keep that from happening. When your snake doesnt pay taxes, gets free health care and gets to go to college for an education for free then ill have a problem with it and i'll say lets do something about it. Until then "RESPONSIBLE" owners shouldnt have to suffer!

I read the bill and I saw comfort in this statement

(F) Constrictor snakes that have the potential to exceed six (6) feet in length.
I have NEVER in all my life seen a BP top out past 5

Problem is, if someone would do thier homework, in many books and websites, it has been stated that Ball Pythons can reach to 6'. I have one currently, that is 5'10". A WC Ghana Female.
-----
Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

I'm not saying you lying or anything like that (well maybe I am) but in the 15 years I've been involved with reptiles including ball pythons I've NEVER seen one exceed 5'. I'm not saying it's not possible.

Can you post a picture of your snake next to a tape measure or something to show it's a 5' 10" ball python. This is something I'd love to see.
-----
Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Happiness is biting my snake back!

Here is a picture of her on three tubs pulled out of a ARS Rack. Which is about the same size of a Freedom Breeder.
Notice, she lays over and inbetween the tubs with some of her going down the side.

-----
Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

That's awesome. Nice looking snake you've got there.
-----
Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Happiness is biting my snake back!

in 15yrs you've never seen a bp over 5ft? WOW!!!! This week alone I've seen over a dozen. We have one that is probably right at 5 ft but I've never put a tape on her but I do know she goes from one end of a 41qt tub, across the back and about half way down the other long side, you do the math. back in the early to mid 90's there were quite a few very very large bp's brought into this country, one of which was on display at the South Carolina reptile show in Columbia that was easily over 6ft long. It was the size of a monster angolan but was definately a bp and to this date is the largest bp I've ever seen. Never make blanket statements about the size of a reptile until you are sure, look at the pic just posted. HE SHOWED YOU!!!
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Go back and read what I posted. I NEVER said a BP of that size didn't exist. I said that I have never seen one or even photos showings a huge BP's true size.

That is why I asked for the picture.
-----
Christine
Tails With Scales Reptiles
Happiness is biting my snake back!

The bill reads "Potential" which includes many snakes that are not typically found at six feet including ball pythons. It appears some thought went behind this but they also based some of the details on anecdotal information. I am strongly against this type of legistlation because it is based on knee-jerk reactions by uninformed political representatives.
-----
================================
Support your local herp society
www.chicagoherp.org

Is that why fox news was at the show this month?

What a joke....BigSqueese it's time to head downtown and start squeezing some heads....lol

keep us posted please
-----
Nick

yep...sorry for the mis-spell bigsquease
-----
Nick

I think the record for verified length was 6'6", not that a snake that size is a danger to anyone. Also, I know a lot of illegal immigrants and they all pay taxes that the will never file for and pay into social security that they will never collect. The government doesn't want you to know this because then you will realize that illegals are good for our economy and they won't be able to use them as a wedge issue.
-----
"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

You can very well argue it this way - there is a lot hinged on that "could" term - which leaves a lot of arguement.

First off - there are humans that reach 7 feet tall - however it is not the norm and most humans are not expected to reach 7 feet even tho some can. It would be most logical to assume a "normal" top size would be the basis for evaluation ie the average full grown adult ball is about 4 1/2 - 5 feet - therefore you could expect most balls to reach 4 1/2 - 5 feet in length and they would be legal to keep and breed.

Also if you have adults in your collection that are maxed out at 4 1/2 - 5 feet then there is no reasonable expectation of them to reach 6 feet - therefore completely legal and again able to continue breeding.

I guess we will all have to change those care sheets to say balls top out at 5 feet.
-----
Tosha

That made more sense when I typed it then it did when it posted
-----
Tosha

I miss you Tosha!

I'd just kinda like to see who all here is. Then Tasha you dont see this right. The Law says "F) Constrictor snakes that have the potential to exceed six (6) feet in length." do you see the word "POTENTIAL" in there? That means that no matter how big your biggist snake is it will still be illegal because some Balls can get that big. It does not matter if you have one that is only 2foot fully grown it will not be allowed with out a permit. . end of story so your little rant about whatever you thought made sense in your head makes none in the real world. So unless everything is changed not just the care sheets. Everything, that includes the bill writers minds. But they could argue that if one can all have the potential to be 6 they all do.

I am from Indiana....Grew up in Anderson and now live in Noblesville
-----
Nick

I'm from Perrysville if you've ever heard of it. . . its a lil BFE town right by the IL state line.

I think I have...I went to college in Terre Haute. I believe that is pretty close to you isn't it?
-----
Nick

TH is about 30-40 miles South on 63 from me so yeah.

Hi Nick...I live in Noblesville too.

Small World

Sean

I wouldn't consider ball pythons of having the potential to reach 6 feet - overall it's a rare occasion and not the norm - if law makers want to include ball pythons then they better specify as such.
-----
Tosha

The law makers dont care what "tasha on the kingsnake ball forum consider" about anything. What you consider the norm and what they do is a big difference. So until people can convene them different it wont matter. If it goes into effect, DNR finds out you have BP's they can come take them and fine you for it because of every informative article ever made, that I know of anyway. They dont have to be specific their the government. It can make illegal all kinds of snakes that have the, here it is again the magic word, "potential" of being 6 feet. Colubrids, Boas, Balls, it could make all kinds of things illegal regardless of what is considered the normal size for that species. Super Dwarf Retics would be in there too just because they are actual Retics.

I agree with you tosha, There are too many loop holes in the written law. In almost all books and care sheets it says balls get about 4-5 feet. Yes there may be some larger ones but i dont see them searching for the largest ball in the world to prove a piont to make a harmless snake illegal, most laws worded as such are to eliminate large boids, retics burms ext. I personally think the law is rediculous and wont be passed or will have to be re-written prior to passing. In no state except NYC are ball pythons illegal. And you can still sell them in NY just not the city. There are many laws that have been passed to make large boids illegal, but not one that has made balls illegal, on what grouds do they feel they should be illegal,they cant kill humans,cant kill the family pet and cant live in our climates like burms in FL can. I dont see Balls becoming illegal, if everyone in Indy thinks it could be possible get a petition together. PETA tried to make feeder animals illegal in RI afew years ago, we got a petition together and the law was thrown out, its worth a try if you trully think its possible. If they just want large boids to be illegal,get a bunch of people together to explain on average balls only get 5feet and should not be classified under this law. Looks like there are alot of people in Indy, the more mouths the better.
Good luck
Just my thoughts.
Kim

Sense no exotic can live in our climate for more than say 5 to 7 months out of a year. . anything more than that would be pushing it because of the cold. Why make any of them illegal. When was the last case of someone being killed by a big snake in IN? (if anyone knows let me know I cant find anything about it) Big snakes are awesome and the only reason I dont have them is a room issue, once I get a bigger place I will get some. If all this keeps up we're going to be worse than Illinois and their crappy exotic laws.

A retic just killed someone a few months ago in southern Indiana. Everyone I know came to ask me about it at work.
-----
2.1 Corn (Anery Stripe-Ripple '06/Amber-Jack Straw '06/Amel Motley-Cosmo '03)
0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 7yrs, Porter 2yrs)

The point is that there are enough loopholes in that law (as it stands) to drive a truck through - or at the very least ball pythons. Starting with the fact that their blanket statement does not cover any particular species or does it encompass any species in whole or in part - in order to apply the rule to balls in general they would have to prove that one could reasonably expect most balls to grow to be 6 plus feet in length - which they don't by anyones terms - it would be hard to pin down a solid judgment based on anomalies. And certainly a 4-5 foot full grown adult ball has no potential of reaching 6 feet.

But that aside - we really do need to focus on banning together as a society to remedy both the upcoming laws to prevent keeping our herps but also remedy the irresponsible ownership which in turn brings about these laws. Because even if Balls don't fall under the six foot law - or the many other ridiculous laws that are being brought about - we shouldn't leave our fellow herpers who own the big guys hanging out to dry.
-----
Tosha

I really hate to disagree Tosha, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what the law actually says. Once the law is passed all that matters is how those that enforce the law interpret it. If anyone gets their balls confiscated as a result of this law, their only hope of getting them back is that they are properly cared for long enough for a drawn out legal battle, possibly in state supreme court.
-----
"yeah, eagles have feathers hanging off of them too and I don't smoke --- out of them!" PS it was a dream catcher!

I am from Indiana. Born and raised in Frankfort, now living in Bloomington and attending IU.

Ron...it is time to write our Congress members.

Hamiliton County is: Senator Luke Kenley and our Congresswoman is Kathy Richardson.

I just finished sending them both a message I will keep everyone posted about what they say when they respond.

If you read all the bill the "fee" for the permit is $100 per animal. OUCH.

np
-----
================================
Support your local herp society
www.chicagoherp.org

It makes me sad that just because of a few irresponsible pet owners that it could very well ruin it for all of us. I love my little girl Zola and it would kill me if the government up and decided that I couldnt have her anymore.

The odd thing about a blanket statment is simply that. It is a blanket statement. In Tacoma, WA it is illegal to own a snake that, at full grown, is more than 8ft long. It is also illegal to own any carnivorous mammal. Blanket there. Cats and dogs are by nature carnivorous. We feed them packaged food. A constictor with the "potential" to grow over 6ft is such a wide statement. Any snake has the "potential" to grow over 6ft. Any snake has the potential to be born with two heads. Any snake has the potential to cause harm to another living creature.

There is a time to fight the establishment and there is a time to join the establishment and make changes.
-----
Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are idiots

Here's their contact information for anyone that wants to contact them regarding this bill:
__________________________________

Senator Robert N. Jackman
Indiana State Senator, District 42
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467
__________________________________

Senator Connie Sipes
Senate District 46

Statehouse Address:
200 West Washington Street
Indianapolis, In 46204-2785

(800)382-9467 or (317)232-9526
S46@in.gov

District Address:
1825 Ekin Avenue
New Albany, IN 47150

(812) 948-9445

__________________________________

Senator Vic Heinold
Indiana State Senator, District 5
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator Sue Landske
Indiana State Senator, District 6
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator Robert Meeks
Indiana State Senator, District 13
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator Ryan Mishler
Indiana State Senator, District 9
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator Greg Walker
Indiana State Senator, District 41
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator John M. Waterman
Indiana State Senator, District 39
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator R. Michael Young
Indiana State Senator, District 35
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204

(317) 232-9400
(800) 382-9467

__________________________________

Senator Tim Skinner
Senate District 38

Statehouse Address:
200 West Washington Street
Indianapolis, In 46204-2785

(800)382-9467 or (317)232-9849
S38@in.gov

District Address:
5899 Devonald Avenue
Terre Haute, IN 47805
(812) 466-7165

__________________________________

Senator Jim Lewis
Senate District 45

Statehouse Address:
200 West Washington Street
Indianapolis, In 46204-2785

(800)382-9467 or (317)232-9534
S45@in.gov

District Address:
774 Level Street
Charlestown, IN 47111
(812) 256-3585

Thanks !!! I think that is a huge step to get people to do something, i think we should all write or call to support herpers in the state even if we are not living there at the time. If this can be stopped it will give other herpers in the future the drive to ban together if this does present itself in another state..
Thanks again I think that list will open a lot of doors for people to let them know just exactly what we think... I urge everyone if you have a few extra min in your day to write or call to do so.. Even if they say we cant do anything b.c we are not in the state, the more mouths fighting for the herpers and thier animals the better.
Thanks Kim
N.A.R.C

Here's a link for the Governor's office as well:

http://www.in.gov/gov/contact/index.html

_____

Rep. Bob Bischoff
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h68@in.gov

_____

Rep. Paul Robertson
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h70@in.gov

_____

Rep. Dave Cheatham
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h69@in.gov

_____

Representative F. Dale Grubb
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h42@in.gov

_____

Rep. Linda Lawson
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h1@in.gov

_____

Rep. Phil Pflum
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h56@in.gov

_____

Rep. Steven R. Stemler
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h71@in.gov

_____

Rep. John D. Ulmer
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h49@in.gov

_____

Rep. Tim N. Brown
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h41@in.gov

_____

Rep. Bob Cherry
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h53@in.gov

_____

Rep. Sean Eberhart
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h57@in.gov

_____

Rep. Eric A. Gutwein
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington St.
Indianapolis, IN 46204

h16@in.gov

Here's the link for House Bill 1472 mentioned in Ron's first email; it's identical to the senate bill we've been discussing.

http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/billwatch/billinfo?year=2007&session=1&request=getBill&doctype=HB&docno=1472#latest_info

Here's a link to an article on the HSUS website explaining their reasons for wanting to ban constricting snakes in Indiana.

http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/the_humane_society_of_the_indiana_python.html

The reason I bring this to your attention is because I believe (from another post) that they’re the ones who authored this bill for Senator Sipes and to the best of my knowledge aren’t affiliated in any way with the Humane Society that most of us are familiar with.

The same logic used in this article applies to ANY animal kept as a pet, most of which are “potentially” far more dangerous than Ball Pythons and Boas. How many marine animals have died as a result of inexperienced keepers? Or cats, dogs, birds, farms animals and on and on... Yet you can still purchase any of those and other high maintenance animals in almost any pet store.

The fact of the matter is the majority of people with pets don't have the proper experience or knowledge to care for the animal to begin with regardless of what type it is, and as a result, the many are punished because of the few that don't care to figure it out. In another article they wrote about the man in Indianapolis who was bitten by one of his 15 venomous snakes and they claim that prohibiting these types of animals would’ve prevented that situation from occurring; but there’s already a permit system in place for class III animals and he circumvented it making their whole point moot. But they still want to punish all of us for the actions of just a handful of irresponsible people.

It's my opinion that as much as HSUS would like to ban keeping any animal as a pet but know they can't do so and have instead identified one of the smaller and less understood groups of pet owners so they can then write in their newsletters "look what we've done". What they will in fact do if they're successful is flood the market with hundreds, if not thousands of animals, since the majority of us don't want to take the chance we'll be charged with a crime or simply can’t afford to pay $100 for every animal we own (under the current system Class III permits have to be renewed every year and all of your adjacent neighbors are notified in writing by the DNR and given the opportunity to comment on the application process). They will in fact exacerbate the very problem they are trying to prevent.

I realize that I’m just complaining but it upsets me that we have to defend ourselves against an unjust policy based on a flawed argument. If this passes, and they can or do ban pythons and boas, next year it’ll be lizards, then fish, and so on until you can’t have any pets at all. I’ve already written to all the members of the Senate NRC and I’m preparing letters for the House NRC. I’ll also send a letter to Governor Daniels and I suggest everyone else does the same as I’m sure there are many people out there who stand to lose just as much, if not more, than I do if this comes to pass.