Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've read a couple of posts and seen this issue with Spiders and the wobble head and some locomotion problems. What is that about? Is that just an anomoly that goes with the spiders or is it a result of toying with genetics? When we force recessive traits, do we get things that are recessive for a reason? Realizing that Spider is a dominant but my point remains.

LOL....Here I was thinking my spider might just be retarded. My little guy is about 200g, nice eater, good disposition and his head wobbles like crazy. I have also noticed that when I put him in his tub he turns upside down with his belly up until he gets a majority of his body enclosed (it's pretty funny to watch)

I am very interested in your question, could you point me in the direction where you have read these posts in the past.
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Nick

Back around the 13th someone asked if pins do the spider bobble head and then I saw it again on the write up on Ralph Davis' site on the spiders. I really like the guys and am looking in to adding one or two(or a few as the addiction grows) to the collection and then I saw this bobble thing. If they grow out of it and it doesn't cause any problems then I'll go ahead and get some.

Thanks for the help.

But it's still kinda trippy

There does seem to be an issue with the spider gene - some spiders have what has been described as a wobble or spin - the degree to which it is displayed is varied from a very minor bit of stargazing to serious flopping and tremors. Most people I've heard from tend to agree that in most cases the wobble decreases or flat out disappears as the snake ages. It does not appear to be a result of inbreeding but an issue that is connected with the spider gene.

Hope this helps.
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Tosha

I would like to know if any wild-type siblings produced in a spider clutch exhibit any signs of wobble or is it only the spiders. It would seem to me that if its only the spiders and not the entire clutch then it would be a spider thing, not an inbreeding issue. But I may be wrong.

Jeff

Yeah - the wobbling is restricted to the spiders only - I've not yet heard of any normals from spider breedings exhibiting the wobble.

A good friend of mine has been breeding them for the past couple of seasons and seems to throw quite a few wobblers - but non of the normal offspring show the wobble. The irony is that one of the wobbler offspring he held back threw three clutches last season and not a wobbler in the bunch.
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Tosha

The spider also:

1. Is one of the best eaters and fastest growers
2. Males tend to breed at an early age
3. Is one of my faborites!

Of course, this is not always true for all specimens, some don't eat well at all and some never breed! I do love 'em, though!

The wobble thing- yeah I noticed it a little bit in my first spider as a juvie- but it went away and causes no after affects. Ralph Davis addressed it recently on his ball forum, pretty good response.

Have fun with 'em, it's a endearing quality of a wonderful animal.

Steve Harrison
J-ville

n/p

faborites? c-mon!

Get FireFox 2. Built in spell checker, wonderful feature (not 100% accurate, as it doesn't have all the words but hey, great for catching typos)
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PHLdyPayne

Spiders are very awesome. But as you said some dont eat. . . I got mine back in november hes about 500grams and now he wont eat. He has ate 1 time for me sence I've owned him. But I do love spiders and I cant wait till I hatch out a lil albino spider.

Blake

I plan on useing spiders in alot of my breeding projects. Is wobbling seen in Albinos, Axanthics, & any other morph crossed with Spiders?
Thanks.

It seems to be part of the gene. It has nothing to do with inbreeding since the original male's kids were outbred right off the bat. Generally, a Spider has a bit of a wobble which I don't mind, in fact I like it. They are generally very responsive and outgoing. The motor skill flaw must be on a gene that is some how associated with the Spider Pattern gene. This seems to mean that they are joined in some manner, the Spider allele pairs with a balance flaw gene. I generally see most spiders with the slight head wobble that makes them "cute". I sometimes may see a Spider with a bit more dramatic issue as a baby and then settle into a growth spurt and it seems to correct itself. I do have a handful of animals that are just plain odd. They are always moving and seem to favor going to the top of the cage and loop. These snakes may exhibit this behavior more if they are suddenly scared or stressed. I don't know what they are doing but they still eat well and make great babies.

Well, that's it in a nutshell. I have explained little but that seems to be all that I actually know. The mutation is one of the best out there and has made incredible combos. I don't mind the head wobble one bit.

As far as tremors? I don't know what that is....I have never seen tremors in Spiders. I basically think they have an equilibrium issue which effects some of their motor skill control.

Kevin
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringment is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

my spider doesnt wobble, but what he does do is strike and miss strike and miss. i dont get why but? he usually gets it after a few times but sometimes he just hits and it doesnt seem like he is hitting it right and i have to pull the rat out of fear that the rat may fight back and bite the snake. any reason why this happens?

They get all excited and have terrible aim!

I think it is just part of the motor skill issue!

Ever see an Emerald Tree Boa when it keys in on a rodent??? Head may start wobbling as they get excited!

I see it for sure but it does not seem to effect the snake one bit, in fact it just makes them a bit more interesting!

Kevin
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringment is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

your saying that they all strike and miss a few times. it worries me that the rat will be able to bite the snake. also sometimes he will strike a rat hold it and then release before the rat is fully dead? scary!!! thanks for your post.

Have you produced or know of any combo morphs with the spider that have the same issue or does that out breeding to another gene seem to eliminate the problem? Evan

For sure... it seems to carry through with the spider gene.

Kevin
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringment is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

This is a wobble head spider male I have here on breeding loan (very long story). He sits in his cage looking half dead most of the time. He won't breed.

Corey

WoW....that guy looks like he is in a different state of mind. Would you say this is an extreme case?
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Nick

Spiders are awesome .........head wobblers and all!!! I have a spider thats about 7 months old and has lost some of the wobble. Except when she's really excited about eating then she wobbles alot when shes in strike mode, but is still deadly accurate. She weighs 800grams at 7 months and has never refused a meal even in the blue stage. She kicks butt!!!!

replace the little doggy bobble head.. :-o
Just kidding of course! I love mine and he eats like a pig and is breeding young.

WOW i love his head pattern very nice spider. I want to see his offspring.
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B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
0.? 07 Pos Het Albino (Momma has not laid the eggs yet)

between the presence of spots/aliens on a spider and its wobble and feeding response? I have three female spiders. Two of them wobble alot when it feeding time and eat like there is no tomorrow and no spots. The third has several spots, two of which form a alien. She has no wobble at all. She eats consistantly, but never gets real excited about it. Also her belly is not as clear as the other two females. Any thoughts?

Jeff

The spider I had was pretty clean and did not wobble at all that I ever detected. He was also a ravenous feeder and would take rats from his second feeding ever (I got him as a fresh hatchling that had never fed). So I'm not sure you could draw a correlation between spotting and the lack of wobbling. Of course, breeders trying to erase any spots at all to make a very clean spider may inadvertently increase the likelihood or intensity of wobbling, so who knows.

(pardon the poop)

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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

The sample size was very small but on another forum there where a couple of cases of the more extreme appearing spiders (more reduced pattern, brighter colors) being the more wobbly. It would be great to hear from someone with a lot of spiders as to if this is a real trend. It could be that whatever chemical change the mutation brings about causes both the spider appearance and the wobble so that they would tend to become more extreme together.

It's also very interesting to hear about collections that report not to have wobbling and animals that start and stop wobbling at different points in their life. Could there be an environmental factor that can compensate for the spider tendency to wobble? Maybe high or low levels of some nutrient in their food?

I bought 2 male spiders and a female a few years ago, one male was a wobbler and the other was not, the female was already larger so i dont know if it was present when she was a baby. Both of my males have breed, the wobbler ended up growing mostly out of it as he aged but still from time to time you can see it. I have not gotten any bad wobblers in any clutches from him, my normal spider has produced slight wobbles in this past season. I held back 2 females that grew out of it and are tanks now. We have also purchased a few more spiders this season and have never had a problem with any wobbling, we had a normal that refused to eat but she has since taken off. I do beleive it is present in almost every spider, some it is much more noticable, but i do not belive that it effects the animals capability of breeding or eating. I also do not think that wobblers produce wobblers or non wobblers produce normal spiders, i think either can produce normal spiders and wobblers.

Some one else had asked about other traits combined with spiders, i have seen bumble bees wobble, i do not know about albinos and such. I have never hatched out or seen a normal sib in a spider clutch wobble.

Spiders are great snakes with huge personalities....I love my wobbley spiders it just adds to their personality

KIM
N.A.R.C.

I have had 2 normal males from spider clutches that have had the wobble problem. I do not think it is solely a gene attached to pattern. I believe it is more then one gene that causes this neurological disorder. I have produced many clutches of spiders and I have only had a few (3-4) that have wobbled and all of them have somewhat grown out of it. My origional spider was purchased from Kevin and was from a spider x spider clutch and has never had a wobble. I had hand picked this animal from all of the ones available at the time in January 2002 and none of those animals wobbled either.

Mike

Head Bobble/wobble. Our male is perfect except does not like to feed ravenously like alot of spiders do. We had hoped to get him to breed this season but with his slower feeding it won't be happening. He would only feed on mice up until a week ago and even then he would only feed on one or two mice every 2 weeks or so.
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....I would rather have a Bottle in front of me.....than a Frontal Lobotomy....

Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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I have found that when a spider is bred to another spider the wobble is noticeable in most of the babies, but when bred to a normal or anything other than a spider, I have noticed no wobble in any of my clutches.....
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Jason Jex

How many spider X spider clutches have you produced? What is your ratio of spider to normals in the clutch(s)? Any significantly different animals (living or not) that you suspect might be homozygous spiders? Any confirmed homozygous spiders?

Thanks!

I don't understand why no one has naything to say about how this trait could in the future ruin the spider morph. If the wobble creates ball pythons with problems like the adult male posted farther up in the line of remarks, then why continue to breed animals with a potentially deadly or just painful trait. I doubt a animal is "happy" when it doesn't know up from down because of a genetic disorder.

I would also like to say that the condition is not cute or cool. Saying that is like saying you think a nuerological disease or form of retardation in human beings is cute. I am sure I will get ripped on for writing any of this.

I recently bred to high end bearded dragons together, I mean big money animals and the resulting offspring had a big problem similar to this head wobble. The hatclings after about a week of normal growth and feeding suddenly had slight twitches, which turned into full on seizures when they became excited about food or got scared when I went to handle them. Many died due to the inability to eat or perhaps just from the pain they went through, subsequently I put a lot of dragons down this year. Even though the animals that survived no longer have the problem I am sure it is still present in their genetics. I would also like to ad that it wasn't just one clutch of eggs it was four clutches all with the same problem. The dragons I did not put down were not sold, almost all of them are either still in my care or have been given homes as adopted pets. They babies have extremely bright and vibrant color and grow and act normal but I'm not ruining the genetic field with dragons with nuerological problems. The parents came from genetic lines that I do not belive to be related, since they are home made morphs from a local show and a good friend who had the line dating back to great grand parents. I am also not a novie at breeding beardeds, I've done it for close to 4 years.

This is my opinion on the matter, don't get me wrong I love ball python morphs and have a small collection myself. I also know that there are spider lines out in the world that do not wobble ever, and I am not saying put your ball python down because it wobbles. I'm saying don't ruin the spider line of ball pythons, or at least if you are going to breed and sell spiders with wobbles then say they wobble so it is made clear you are selling a potential genetic pool ruining animal.

Thanks for reading my rantings. Please feel free to rip my thought and opinions apart now.

MC

I don't know how many responses you will get with this thread being so far down at this point, but I would not rip on you for your opinion. Its just that your opinion. I don't think anyone on here has a PHD in genetic nor am I aware of any long term studies of the genetics of line breeding and morphs so any thing that i say is theory or opinion at best. I agree that the "wobble" is not cute or indearing, but it is interesting. With the three females that I have there is almost three distinct degrees of this condition. The first one I obtained has had a moderate wobble from day one and the severity has not change with age or size(6 months/600gms). The second female had no decernable wobble when she was purchased but has over the last couple of months gained a wobble when she get excited. The third female has no wobble what so ever. All three females have different apperances both ventraly and dorsaly, but I have no way of connecting appearence or appetite to the wobble except for what was note above. I mention appetite or feeding response because the two that wobble are psycho feeders and the third is not. As far as ruining the pool I would think that the larger the pool gets the less this would be a factor. The more they are outcrossed from the original line the more the genetics become dilute. As far as selling these animals into a trade that is thriving off of the existence of such morphs I don't see thing changing much unless there is a severe worstening of this condition, but again I think things are going in the opposite direction. I think just from the replies to this post; even though a small percentage, people are expressing "no wobble". And lets face it the spider is not the only morph that has genetic defaults. The caramel albino has spinal kinks, the cinnamon/ black pastels have bubble nose and there are also rare totaly random cases of cleft jaw. These are all the reality of maitaining a geneticly diverse, wild animal in captivety in a relatively small gene pool, but what are you going to do. Not breed animals you love and enjoy just because there may be a chance of some genetic deformity. Genetic deformities exist in every species on earth the difference being that in the natural enviroment natural selection weeds out the bad seeds. And the mutations that are not weeded out; well I think thats what they call evolution. Kevin from NERD mentioned seeing a wobble in an arboreal boa. Perhaps if left untouched in nature this "wobble" or equalibrium problem would have eventually led to a arboreal sub-species of Ball Python. Who knows. But again this is just my opinion/theory based on no scientic fact.

Jeff

I don't think the wobble in an aboreal species is the same as what is going on in spiders. I have noticed GTP's have a certain bounce in their coils as the move to strike at food. I have a 100% het albino ball male that pumps himself up as he prepares to strike at his food and if he misses he pumps himself up even more. In these cases I think it is muscle contractions or the animal tensing up for the release of a strike, but I don't know this to be a fact it is just what I think it could be.

Replies to my post do not matter at this point, I am statisfied just to have voiced my opinion on it. I also suppose by this point the only people going to comment on it are people with a true opinion rather then an attack on my opinion.

MC

That was basically one of my original questions. Is it a "FLAW" and was it there for a reason? As an ambush killer in the wild, or just for camoflage, the wobble would give it away and make it more succeptable to predation and would eventually weed it out. It seems to be like autism in humans. If they get excited or stressed, it activates this "Ten minutes to Wopner" go sit in the corner and rock response. If there are non-wobbling spiders and non-wobbling offsping from them, it would seem a benefit to reproduce these animals. Now the wobbly ones are still nice to look at, but maybe not breed. I saw a post here that said they got wobbly spider sibs too. Pugs have eye and sinus problems. The ones that do are not bred. They still make great pets for those who have the time to deal with the issues but the produce no offspring.

Which brings me to another random question that I will also post seperately. Is there a pedegree program for ball and its morphs other than a simple "I got it from... and I have a receipt".

As far as arboreal wobble, may just be to immitate the movement of the trees and vines when the wind blows. Chameleons do it when they walk.
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Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are idiots